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June 19, 2006

Comments

Tom Head

This is indeed delightful news. +Schori was by far my favorite of the nominees, but I never considered for a moment that she might actually be elected given what I had taken to be the current disposition of the HOD with regard to conservative primates abroad. She will be a great, great leader for the church.


Cheers,

TH

John

Sigh.

My favourite Episcopal bishop (+ Ackerman) will be so sad. I am pulling for Forward in Faith today-I hope they are let go with some grace. I have a huge soft spot for Anglo-Catholics, "trogodytes" or not, because they are the "peaceful and faithful in Israel" who are most persecuted by the so-called "liberals" who don't seem to welcome diversity when it is actually diversity between different opinions. Mrs. Schori seems to think they'll get over theological principle in the same 15 minutes it takes to get over prejudice. Good luck with that.

I tend to think the election of Katharine Schori a work of the Holy Spirit-We prayed for clarity and got it. ECUSA is irrevocably devoted to a revisionist agenda, and has completely capitulated to the culture. Requiscat. How sad.

NancyP

I don't know that I see the sort that hangs out on VirtueOnline to be all that peaceful. One of the posters today said that TEC was at such low ebb that it had to settle for a tart (and I am sure they didn't mean the food kind). Not terribly mature or peaceful, to my mind. Plus, there seems to be a glorification of Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which pretty much indicates a desire for the good old days when women were silent in church - and that seems to be a common theme, whatever the day holds, at VOL.

Hugo

John, it has been a while! I'm sure you'd agree that in the contemporary Episcopal church, NONE of us should speak of being persecuted when very real persecution of Christians is happening in places like the Sudan, Nigeria, and China. But you and I agree that sometimes, to let one's former partner go in peace is the most loving, wise, and spiritually mature thing one can possibly do. None of us should value unity over conscience.

evil_fizz

None of us should value unity over conscience.

Hugo, I think that this comment is worthy of its own post, especially in light of a lot of the criticism you've been getting in the blogosphere lately. I find it fascinating that you're able to stand on principle when it comes to something like ordaining liberal female bishops, but you still have lunch with Glenn Sacks (to use an old and well-thrashed example).

Hugo

Evil_fizz, I don't see how those two things are the same. Friendship and unity are not the same thing. Unity, whether in marriage or in a denomination, is about saying "We believe the same things and are building a common life together." Friendship, on the other hand, says "We may not believe the same things, but we still see value and goodness in each other."

You're right, it's worth a post.

Tom Head

I had the unity-conscience dilemma myself (in my very conservative diocese), and resolved it by returning to my Unitarian church and leaving the Episcopal Church behind. But it's still a very happy thing for me to see +Schori as the U.S. primate.


Cheers,

TH

evil_fizz

Friendship and unity are not the same thing. Unity, whether in marriage or in a denomination, is about saying "We believe the same things and are building a common life together." Friendship, on the other hand, says "We may not believe the same things, but we still see value and goodness in each other."

I see your point, but it's not sitting well with me for some reason. Maybe it's because I see one of the fundamental tenants of both of these kinds of relationships as sticking up for others? (The people in your denomination, your marriage, and your friendships are supposed to be one your side in my way of thinking.) I'm really not sure, and I'll see if I can come up with something more specific.

I wasn't sure if the Glenn thing was the analogy I wanted to draw, but I left it up there because in a lot of your writing, I've noticed your desire for unity in all areas. You want to be friends with all sorts, to reach out, to convert, and that's frequently a good thing. But I suspect that unity and friendship as you've defined them can readily come into conflict.

In any case, I'll think some more about it and get back to you.

John

Well, there is persecution and persecution. Persecution doesn't have to be physical to be real and felt; I agree with the gay community about that much at least. (Yes, it has been a while. I've been reading, but rather busy with the rest of life to comment)

If you take VirtueOnline as your sampling of Conservatives, no doubt we do look combative and nasty, especially in the aftermath of a great hurt. But I defy you to look me in the face and say that + Keith Ackerman is anything but peaceful and faithful. He doesn't believe women should be in Holy Orders. That's an issue of conscience. And given the way the debate over WO was handled, I am in sympathy with him. The election of Schori and VGR is the latest in a long line of decisions where theology took a back seat to politics. There is a theological case for WO (which I accept, by the way), but the attacks of ECUSA on those English Catholics who disagree have been nothing short of a disgrace. +Schori should let them go to the ABC with her blessing. If she did that, I might believe her when she says she's a reconciler.

Hugo

Not a comment, but an explanation for readers not used to Anglican-speak:

ABC: archbishop of Canterbury
VGR: Vicky Gene Robinson, bishop of New Hampshire
WO: women's ordination
Keith Ackerman: Bishop of Quincy, Illinois, and one of the most conservative in the Episcopal Church USA (ECUSA, of course)

John

Thank you for the translation service, Hugo. Appreciate it. :-)

Oriscus

Um, Cap'n Pro-Feminist Hugo:-)

It appears to be +Jefferts Schori, not +Schori. She may not hyphenate, but all the press reports - even those from the troglodyte Right - have used both names.

Oh, and Virtueonline is *not an example of a conservative Anglo-Catholic blog. DV and company are generally "evangelical"/fundie in sympathy, though they do make common cause with FiF ("Forward in Faith" - the dominant Troglo-Anglo-Catholic grouping, despite their name). Anglo-Catholics of whatever stripe have been generally misunderstood from the very beginning (by ourselves too, if the truth be told). "Affirming Catholic" is the more socially progressive expression of the same movement from the nineteenth century working itself out today.

Gotta say I'm downright giddy about being able to type ++Jefferts Schori, though. (+Atlanta was my first choice, because he is a musician - nobody who has ever worked as a Church musician will fault me for that; +Nevada was tied with +Lexington for second place in my book)

Antigone

Not to go OT here, but this is where I have to agree with the more "conservative elements". The Bible is pretty explicitly against women in power (Even Debrah had to work through her drunken husband). Of course, to me, this is a reason to reject the whole power structure and but *Shrugs*. I'm glad it's progressing, if for nothing else than a lot of people believe it.

BONNIE

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Mike

You know, I used to be in favor of women's ordination, now I am not so sure. As I have come to learn more about how the Catholic Church derives its authority, I'm not certain She has the authority to ordain women.

When they express concerns about Katherine Schori, smart traditionalists will need to differentiate between their objections to women in leadership and their quarrels with her progressive theology.

I can't say for certain what is going on in the minds of conservative Anglicans, but I disagree that opposing women's ordination means opposing women taking leadership roles in the Church. Women may contribute greatly to both the intellectual, spiritual, and pragmatic workings of the Church without necessarily receiving the sacrament of Holy Orders.

Hugo

Antigone and Mike, do visit the CBE website I link above in the original post. The Pauline case for the ordination of women is powerful indeed. I'm glad to say that a remarkable and growing number of serious evangelicals support women in all forms of pastoral leadership.

Chris

Hugo, have you spoken with your "old friend" Jon Bruno abot his (thus far) futile scheme to sue the dissenter parishes in his diocese into handing over their property? About the $300 attorneys at Morrison Forrester who are assiting him in this terribly un Christ like pursuit?

With "friends" like Jon Bruno, as the saying goes, who needs enemies?

Chris

that's $300/hr.

Antigone

Mike:

Call a spade a spade: influence is not power, and nor is it leadership. Yes, women contribute a lot to a church, but in onces where they cannot be the pastor (priest, bishop, what have you) they have no actual power, just influence.

westcoast2

I am probably one of the few to be saddened at this news.

Is it really 'progressive' to continue to press further and cause disunity?

Is it really 'progressive' to alientate other churches (esp Catholic)?

Hugo said...
" smart traditionalists will need to differentiate between their objections to women in leadership and their quarrels with her progressive theology. If they don't, I can be fairly confident that my fellow liberals will deftly play the "sexist troglodyte" card against them!"

And will you condone this?

I probably fall into the "Dumb sexist troglodyte" camp. Still at least its a sincere belief and one that is open enough to discuss the issues, rather than just calling people names.

be well


Hugo

Absolutely not, West, I don't endorse name-calling. Read my post today.

It's time for a sad, tender, peaceful break-up with fervent prayers for the health and spiritual well-being of those with whom we will no longer be in communion.

Mike

Hey Antigone-

You have a point- the actual policy and direction of the Church is determined by the clergy. I suppose though, they would not see themselves as coming up with policy based on their own desires and wants for how the church should go- but rather as interpreting the Apostolic Tradition handed down by Christ. Power does not flow from Karol Wojtyla and Joseph Ratzinger and what they think should be done, but from (from our perspective) following and elucidating Sacred Tradition. They are just as bound by it as we are.

Women have served (and still do serve)as administrative heads in parishes and dioceses, and have been a significant part of Vatican administrative offices. They have even served as Papal envoys at times.

How leadership can be "uncoupled" from ordination is an interesting topic, and one I'm just staring to explore.

The Happy Feminist

Women may contribute greatly to both the intellectual, spiritual, and pragmatic workings of the Church without necessarily receiving the sacrament of Holy Orders.

Of course one wonders why on earth women would want to contribute to the workings of a Church that would deprive them of the opportunity to perform the most important functions of the church.

westcoast2

The Happy Feminist wrote
Of course one wonders why on earth women would want to contribute to the workings of a Church that would deprive them of the opportunity to perform the most important functions of the church.

I believe women and men perform different functions of equal importance within the church.

Why do you consider certain roles in the Church more important than others?

SamChevre

Happy,

You're missing a big point. It isn't that the church "won't let" women take certain roles; in the theologies that don't ordain women, the argument is that women CAN'T take those roles. A good parallel is marriage. The issue isn't that my wife won't let me bear children; it's that I can't. It's by being part of the marriage that I can have children--the question of "why do you want to be married if your wife won't let you fill the most important role in the marriage" is incoherent to the point of being nonsensical.

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