"Malcolms and Martins" and fulfilling the feminist Great Commission: responding to the critics

It's early on a Thursday morning, and I've got finals to give and papers to grade.  And though at least a good percentage of my mind is elsewhere, I am ready to begin to respond to folks like Piny at Feministe, McBoing at Punkass Blog, Sheelzebub, and Violet at Reclusive Leftist (among others) who have been debating my June 6 post in which I gave advice to a lad named "Pete".

As best I can tell, the problem unfolded on two fronts.  First off, a number of voices in the feminist blogosphere felt I took it too easy on Pete when he announced that he wasn't ready to practice pro-feminism and give up some of his "bad boy" behavior.  Secondly, when called on that by McBoing, I wrote in a comment at that blog:

The key thing I would like to stress is that unlike a great many folks who commented, I do the pro-feminist thing FOR A LIVING. I work, in the trenches, to try and bring young men who are profoundly hostile to anything that smells of feminism to a greater accountability in their lives. If I confront these guys, they’ll walk away with nothing at all but an even bigger chip on their shoulders; an incremental approach that encourages small changes is the one way that I have found that really works.

Piny and Violet were as incensed by that comment as by my original post. 

Let me see if I can tackle the two related issues in order:

First off, I'm sorry that my original post about Pete gave the impression that I wasn't interested in challenging him (and other fellas like him) to overcome their sexism and become better, kinder human beings.  I think I made it fairly clear in the piece that I was challenging Pete's notion that pro-feminism isn't about chronic anxiety and indecisiveness.  I certainly didn't intend to give the impression to readers that I thought that Pete was "just fine where he was", without considerable room for growth.  I wasn't endorsing reckless, cruel, and unthinking behavior with women -- regardless of what age Pete is. 

But becoming a pro-feminist is a process, not an event.  There are hundreds of comments at Feministe and Punkass Blog suggesting that I ought to have been more forceful with Pete, more condemnatory of his "player" attitude, and more firm in my challenges to his worldview.  A great many folks were appalled that I chuckled with Pete and let him leave with the seemingly benign maxim to take things "one day at a time."  Yet I remain convinced that with some young men, this sort of gradual (even indulgent) approach is best.  Before I can hold a young man to account, I have to earn his trust; before I can challenge him to grow, I have to establish my bona fides. And part of earning that trust is acknowledging that some of his concerns (not all) are legitimate, and that living life as a pro-feminist man (particularly in college) isn't a cakewalk!

As a Christian, I've spent a lot of time thinking about evangelistic strategies.  I have friends who are faculty members and students at Fuller's School of World Mission; their field, "missiology", is devoted to the study of evangelism.  The great question is always: "How do we couch the Gospel in terms that will be heard by people from different backgrounds and cultures?"  I've sat in on a class or two in "missions"; it's a fascinating academic discipline and an enormously important subject in the evangelical world.  And as a gender studies professor, I've spent a lot of time thinking about how I can adapt some of these missionary strategies to reach young men and women with a pro-feminist message.  In missions work, you learn fast that hectoring (the "hellfire and brimstone" strategy) gets you nowhere fast.  Though Christianity has a history of aggressive and often violent proselytizing, modern evangelism is an elegant,intellectually sophisticated,  culturally sensitive seduction.  I'm convinced that those of us who preach feminism should use the same strategies!

Now,  I'm not saying this "softer, gentler, one-day-at-a-time" strategy is one that every feminist ought to use.  Feminism is a big house, and there is room within that house for a variety of approaches to "spreading the word".  Confrontation has its place.  All good movements for justice, in  other words, need their "Martins" and their "Malcolms"!  (Please know I'm not trying to compare myself to either Malcolm X or Dr. King.)  I'm more interested in adopting an incremental approach because it's the approach that I think works best with the greatest number of young men and women.  My students always hear me, for example, compare becoming a feminist to getting into a cold swimming pool:  a few will find it easiest to just dive in, but most of us will climb down, step by step, shivering all the way, only gradually becoming comfortable.  And none of us can fully immerse ourselves forever; we all have to keep a head above water in order to breathe.  That image may not work for everyone, but it comes as close as any to describing my "slow and easy" approach to transformation.

And then there's the second issue: my unfortunate choice of words on McBoing's blog.  I wrote, rather defensively: I do the pro-feminist thing FOR A LIVING. I work, in the trenches, to try and bring young men who are profoundly hostile to anything that smells of feminism to a greater accountabilty in their lives.  I posted that comment in haste, and I regret my poor choice of words.  I didn't mean to imply that I am a "better" feminist than those who are not paid to teach feminism.  And I recognize that as a man, I can always make the choice to not be a feminist without paying a major personal pricee.  It is obvious to me in hindsight that the comment was pompous and patronizing, and I regret that I made it.

My goal was to point out that I do have a decade or more of experience teaching feminism to college students, and seven years of working with teens as a youth leader.  I've learned, through trial and error, a great deal about what "works" and doesn't work.  When I was younger, I was far more passionate and far more likely to see things in black and white.  I'd like to think that my appreciation for ambiguity and incremental change is a sign of wisdom on my part, but I am aware that my critics are more likely to construe it as cowardice, people-pleasing, and privilege.  It is possible that at times I am not forceful enough with young men and women who are still "stuck" in certain patterns of thinking and behavior; then again, I know plenty of colleagues of mine who scare off potential converts.  This much I am certain of:  no one who teaches this subject has anything like a 100% success rate in raising up young feminists and pro-feminists!  We are all struggling, as best we can (in the trenches) to carry out the feminist version of the Great Commission: to convey the message that women are full and complete human beings, radically equal to men in every imaginable respect.  We who teach and lead will all have our sucesses and our failures, and we do well to always be alert to new and possibly more productive strategies for achieving our goals.

I've got another post in mind about the way in which my writing seems to infuriate my potential allies, but that's for later.

Comments

[mythago]

Hugo, the issue is not that becoming more progressive is "a process", or that people generally don't go from nonfeminist to feminist instantly. The issue is that you didn't really challenge Pete's excuses--that being pro-feminist will kill his sex life, or that treating women as people is something he needn't worry about until he's older. You have the luxury of telling Pete to treat women as jizz dumpsters--it doesn't affect you much.

[Hugo]

Mythago, I simply didn't say that -- I challenged him to work at changing his life, with an end goal of treating women as radical equals. The end result is the same, but the pace may be different.

[sophonisba]

The Christianity/feminism comparison offends me more every time I hear it. It's not that you occasionally compare them for tactics, it's that you talk about them as being similar in a very deep way. Let me make it very clear that the offense is not dependent on my being a non-Christian; in fact, for the purposes of this comment I will assume that Christianity is right and true.

But it's a matter of faith.

One in ten can have an intense conversion experience, one in a hundred can have a mystical revelation, one in a thousand can think they hear the very voice of God, let's say. But for the majority, faith is the whole point. God is not going to take literal, corporeal form and argue with you about the composition of the Bible for hours on end. God is not going to come to all your parties. and turn water into wine for a party trick. That's not how it works.

Women are not like God. The fact of women's equality stares you in the face each and every time you talk to one, which you can do any time you choose. The existence of women's humanity and equality is not a mystery, sacred or otherwise; it can be seen, felt, heard, and experienced by anyone who has any kind of contact with any woman.

Feminism isn't about faith. You need faith, perhaps, to believe that feminism will ultimately triumph - but not to be a feminist right now. The truth is not hidden. Women's humanity is not hidden. The more you talk about how hard and uncomfortable it is to treat women as equal humans, the more some of your students are going to think, hey, wait, it's not hard for me, it's instinctive. I must be doing it wrong. The swimming pool metaphor makes feminism into a religion, as if common sense has nothing to do with it. Becoming a feminist takes observation, logic, direct experience and honesty. Not revelation, and not faith.

So you may have other ideas in mind about what infuriates some of your allies about your writing, but for me, this is it.

[Hugo]

Thanks for clarifying that, Sophonisba. My faith and my feminism are so inextricably linked that to untangle one from the other would be to try and undo the old Gordian knot; I don't know that I had understood until now how exasperating that is to other folks.

[jfpbookworm]

Hugo - I think there's a fundamental flaw in your comparison, one that's been bothering me since the original post:

There's no such thing as a meaningful deathbed conversion to feminism.

From an admitted outsider's perspective, Christianity seems very focused on the end result: it doesn't matter if one is devout from birth, or "lives a life of sin" and later converts (assuming their conversion is sincere). Feminism, on the other hand, is more concerned with the harm that sexism does *now*, and a later reformation doesn't mean that the prior acts never happened.

[jeffliveshere]

mythago--
Here's part of how Hugo 'didn't' challenge Pete, according to the original post:
"An aspiring pro-feminist man still gets to express his desires and his wants; he doesn't get to keep a sense of entitlement that tells him that women exist only to meet those desires and wants."

"Of course, I did tell Pete that the purpose of becoming a pro-feminist man is not to please women or to "get" women into bed. Indeed, doing so only reinforces the worst stereotypes about male feminists! "

"I reminded Pete that I hadn't tried to sell pro-feminism as a "tool" for using and exploiting women."

These sentiments don't seem to be anywhere close to "telling Pete to treat women as jizz dumpsters". If one wants to argue that these sentiments, while combined with an incrimental technique, aren't enough, that's an argument that can be made. But that argument isn't the same as arguing that Hugo told Pete to treat women as jizz dumpsters, in my opinion.

[Hugo]

True, Jeff -- but I'm not saying that they are identical; I am arguing that they are compatible, and that the tactics used in missions work and in feminist classes ought to be similar.

[jeffliveshere]

Hugo--
I think there is at least one more thread you might address (there are, of course, lots of threads you might address!): piny's point over at feministe about not explaining to Pete that women aren't an undifferentiated mass...

It's good you took some time before responding; I think your response lacks the defensiveness that it might have had given the vehemence with which your points (and, in some cases, your character) and your flavor of feminism have been argued against.

[jfpbookworm]

Hugo: what I'm saying is that the difference between being focused on future conversion and being focused on immediate reform are a fundamental difference that implies that the tactics ought *not* to be similar - this is why statements like "one day at a time" are inappropriate with respect to feminism.

[Hugo]

Jeff, thanks. JFP, I do think that becoming a feminist is a process measured in small steps. It's how it happened in my life, and I've seen it in the lives of others. Unlearning sexist behavior just doesn't happen overnight. It begins with a decision to become a feminist, but that decision is lived out in countless smaller decisions every darned day.

[wolfa]

I don't understand your swimming pool. Fine, some people do it as a slow process, some people jump right in. But what does it mean that you can't be in the pool forever -- that it's important or necessary to take little breaks when you (phew!) get to be an anti-feminist?

[Hugo]

No, you can be in the pool forever, but you can't breathe underwater. It means no one can be a perfect feminist all the time. Our human need to breathe forces us to the surface; the fact that we live in the culture that we do forces us to make at least the occasional compromise.

[Geo]

In confronting Pete (and talking of it) I think it important to distinguish between:
1.) Talking TO Him - to TELL him - a clear message, vs.
2.) Talking WITH Him - hoping to Reach Him - where he is at at now.
3.) Talking to Others (such as us) through Him

In considering the differences:
1.) Often might come from Our Own Issues - e.g. The CRITICAL Importance of Misogyny and Feminism - e.g. "I've been badly Hurt and it's important that you hear this NOW"
2.) Recognizing how 1.) - might serve Your needs, but may simply turn Pete off and may indeed support him moving - away from Feminism
3.) Dealing with All of Our Perceptions and Issues - and various other things.

When I did Men's Anti-Rape work - 1983-1987 - we had a weekly informational booth - where Men saw us every Saturday in the warm weather months. We also were visible at other events. Men often came to us with: "aha" insights and support - after seeing us multiple times and sometimes getting our brochure more than once. We - as men - and indeed women as well - often don't see things immediately - we see them as we can take them in and as we can move with them - at our own pace.

Yes - it is good to confront Pete - but How you could have done it most effectively isn't necessarily - the "politically correct" way of doing it. Pete needs to hear the truth, but hearing "all the truth" may be too much for him.

There is a time and a place for - bluntness and being "out there". Only you - can determine what is best with your student.

Thanks!

geo - www.geoisphere.blogspot.com

[Tammy]

Not sure about the Malcolms and Martins thing. Both of those men were courageously confrontational, and the latter went to jail a whole lot directly confronting people about racism.

[Hugo]

And Tammy, I'm not advocating disengagement -- I'm advocating a gentle challenge that is, in its own way, quite confrontational. Read my posts about porn -- I push hard, but I push hard with an appreciation that transformation happens slowly.

[sophonisba]

No, you can be in the pool forever, but you can't breathe underwater. It means no one can be a perfect feminist all the time. Our human need to breathe forces us to the surface; the fact that we live in the culture that we do forces us to make at least the occasional compromise.

Okay - wow. I experienced and continue to experience feminism as liberating, freeing, and wonderful. It is a relief and a way out and forward from a history and a culture that says horrible things about and does horrible things to my half of humanity. Most women feminists do. To experience feminism as suffocating, cold, denying of human needs? I can't even begin to understand where this is coming from. In your metaphor, feminism isn't the cold water, it's the air. And yes, it's our humanity that forces us to come to the surface. It's feminism that allows us to breathe.

[punkass marc]

I am arguing that they [feminism/Christianity] are compatible, and that the tactics used in missions work and in feminist classes ought to be similar.

Oy vey.

If you had a racist in your class, would you gently, calmly nudge-nudge-know-what-you-mean slowly try to bring him along, or would you more assertively confront him? I don't think you'd tolerate racism the same way you might be tolerating sexism, Hugo. I think you would, perhaps not rudely, but sternly, set someone straight on race. Why should women be treated differently? Because you think it's still more socially acceptable to be a woman hater?

These are some of the many reasons your Martin/Malcolm comparison made me throw up a little.

[Tammy]

Gently confrontational is euphemistic. The myth that MLK was less confrontational than Malcolm X won't die but let me put it this way: Malcolm X focused pretty much exclusively on speaking to black people about racism, and MLK aimed for a larger social message and direct confrontation with white racists. Radical politics are not about tactics, they are about politics. In tactics, the reason Malcolm X was remembered as more radical was he took a hostile tone a lot more than MLK did, but that's not really why he was more radical. He was more radical initially as a black separatist but eventually it was more that he had a full scale view of black empowerment as something that had to be economic and personal as well as political.

MLK, by the way, came around to Malcolm X's view on this in a lot of ways.

[The Happy Feminist]

Here is my question:

Has "Pete" seen all the blog posts and comment threads in response to your initial post, Hugo? Has he said anything to you about them?

(Apologies if I asked this already in another thread. I don't think I did.)

[Hugo]

I have had no word from Pete yet. Pete?

[Hugo]

Sophonisba, the different ways we read the metaphor of water and air are very instructive and interesting to me. Thanks.

[AB]

You know, punkass marc, I think you're making a good point there, although not the one you might have meant. If Hugo had a student who said a racist thing in his class, I do hope that he would slowly try to bring him along.

The alternative being 'to sternly set him straight'--which accomplishes what, exactly? Creating one more white person who refuses to talk about race, at all, because they're afraid of someone getting mad? Who becomes a bit alarmed whenever any topic relating to racial relations is brought up and tries to change the subject or says 'well I have black friends' or 'oh, I'm probably just not politically correct, watch out!' and who ultimately perpetuates racism because dealing with it requires talking about it, which they are too scared to do anymore?

Looking at the state of white liberals and progressives who nervously dance around the issue of race and talk about an ideal of being colorblind, can you honestly say that the whole calling-someone-out-sternly thing has worked out the way it was hoped to? I sure don't think so. In fact, I would argue that the whole phenomenon of white people being more afraid to be called a racist than to be a racist, discussed in depth a while back on pandagon, might be the fruits of that approach.

I sure as hell don't think that people who have had to deal with racism day in and day out should have to hold some white person's hand while they ask stupid questions and try to figure out how and why they are racist and how to stop being so. I think that's white people's job. What's so frustrating to me about this whole kerfuffle is that what Hugo was doing is exactly what I think should be happening: it shouldn't be women who have to hold men's hand and slowly lead them to feminism. It should be men, talking to other men, being patient and answering the dumb questions that reveal sexist biases. I'm glad it's Hugo, because it's not my job as a woman to explain this shit to men, and by and large I'd get too pissed off to be effective.

[jeffliveshere]

What's so frustrating to me about this whole kerfuffle is that what Hugo was doing is exactly what I think should be happening: it shouldn't be women who have to hold men's hand and slowly lead them to feminism. It should be men, talking to other men, being patient and answering the dumb questions that reveal sexist biases. I'm glad it's Hugo, because it's not my job as a woman to explain this shit to men, and by and large I'd get too pissed off to be effective.--AB
What a great point...and not one I've seen brought up so explicitly.

Just sayin'.

[Carlos Rios]

This is "Pete." Hugo didn't use my real name, Carlos. In his essay he mentioned I am of Greek descent, which I am am. I am also half-Mexican, which he didn't point out. I think I can guess why: Hugo knew that "Pete" was a white sounding name, and if he gave my real name, his readers might connect wht I said to him with my race. I guess that is a whole other issue though.

Hugo sent me an e-mail and asked me to come on here. I read his original post which was accurate and have been really angry at some of the comments that come his way. If you are going to get angry get angry at me, I am the "fella" (Hugo always says "fellas") who is not so sure about being femnist.

I am not a hard player. I was asking why I shouldn't try to be one! But I am not sure whether I am a profemnist! I'm 20 years old and I want to do well in school, have fun while I'm young, and find a respectable woman to marry in a few years. Hugo has successfully talked me out of many of my double standards for girls. I used to say I wanted a virgin when I marry, and now I accept that women can have the same experiences I do. I treat my little sisters with much more respect now.

Hugo is right: becoming a feminist is hard work. The water is very cold. Hugo keeps wanting me to go deeper, and I keep standing on the shelf up to my knees. I expect I will take another step, and then another, and then another. Hugo is very good about encouraging that. I disagree with him about some things, like his oppositon to pornography, but I respect what he is trying to do. People should sit in his class before criticizng him. (And Hugo, I did not tell you, but based on your essay here recently, I thought I'd tell you I thought you were completely gay when I first took your class. Your clothes were what made me think that more than any thing, but that is another subject.)

[ehj2]

This is frustrating because I can sense your good will and integrity.

But simply "regretting" being "pompous and patronizing" is not the same as apologizing for it. You know, I regret I didn't invest more in Microsoft and Cisco way back when.

The intellectual act of not apologizing for being patronizing is another (subtle but yet more aggressive) form of being exactly that, pompous and patronizing.

What makes me uncomfortable with both your expressions of Christianity and your Feminism here is the implied sense that these are marketing campaigns that need to be tuned and massaged. Because of this packaging (of salesmanship), I feel I'm being sold on something. Which means there's an implied cost somewhere.

But there is no cost in seeing women as human. ALL of the cost is in NOT seeing women as human.

There is no cost in not being a JERK and in not PLAYING with women. ALL of the cost is in living life as a JERK and a PLAYER and thinking that's life.

And I would never attempt to sell God in any of Her many narratives.

Lastly, when ANY of the formal religions openly accept women as priests and formally withdraw every form of the assertion that women caused the Fall, then I will consider the possible logic in your assertion of the gordian knot interrelatedness of Christianity and Feminism.

/ehj2