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May 25, 2006

Comments

johann

Your own words, Hugo:
This is not a free speech zone, nor need it be. It's my blog...
-----
You are very worried about listening to the opinion of men, who do not agree with your statements.
Your statement shows, that you are into censorship...not a good way for a discussion.
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About your subject: ....In my women's history classes over the past decade, men average 10-20% of the students, never more....
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I also had the questionable pleasure in Europe to attend such a class. It was not a funny time for me.
-----
You said:
All of this behavior reflects two things: men's genuine fear of being challenged and confronted, and the persistence of the stereotype of feminists as being aggressive "man-bashers." The painful thing about all this, of course, is that no man is in any real physical danger in the classroom -- or even outside of it -- from feminists.
-----
Not true in my case, as women are hitting and kicking men, and all what you can do as a man is to remain silent about it.
There are also other form of violence by women, like defamation, false accusations, abusive language, theft and similar actions against men, sharing the same class-room.

Open your eyes, Hugo...and learn not to look away...but I understand, that in your position, you have to choose the comfortable way, otherwise you might be out of job in the school, where you are teaching.

badgerbag

Hey Hugo. Great post. I think the exaggerated fear of women's violence also functions as a reminder to the women that it's women who are in danger of physical violence for speaking up.

badgerbag

Oh and to bmmg39: "I'm still blinking my eyes over how a meek "I hope I don't get killed for this" is being construed as a misogynist, "keep the women quiet" sort of phrase. Isn't it brutally obvious that saying "I hope I don't get killed for this" is a sign that the SPEAKER is used to not having a say, of being in the minority, of having a tendency of being shouted down?"

It's not meek - it's falsely jocular and hostile. It's not that the male speaker isn't used to not having a say -- it's that they're NOT used to their frame of reference being challenged.

The Gonzman

-- it's that they're NOT used to their frame of reference being challenged.

Yeah, that's right. We sit around in the Patriarchal He-Man Woman-Hater's Club agreeing with everything each and every one of us says. First to speak sets the agenda. Nobody gets challenged.

Great Googly-moogly.

Creeping Jenny

I don't think the attempts to deflect criticism are unique to women's studies -- I get them from my students as well, and the stuff I teach is often not considered politically charged. It seems to be a method for protecting one's insecurities and for avoiding difficult intellectual work. (That might explain why men do it more often than women in your classes: men are likely to feel more insecure in that setting. In my classes, women seem to do it about as often as men.) It's a mechanism that I can of empathize with, but at the same time it's not really an acceptable substitute for thought and self-examination.

Generally, what I do about it is to find some oblique way of telling the student that nobody is out to attack them personally -- and then going on to encourage criticism of their ideas (note: not the person, the idea). Mythago's suggestion sounds like it would work great toward both ends.

perplexed

Yeah, that's right. We sit around in the Patriarchal He-Man Woman-Hater's Club agreeing with everything each and every one of us says. First to speak sets the agenda. Nobody gets challenged.

Gonz, don't give the game away. Just because I got first shout last time. (I realise this post sounds to ultra-hyper-sensitive feminist ears to be 'frat boy jocularity' and therefore pseudo-violent to female ears, but I can't help my nature, sigh!).

bmmg39

"Hey Hugo. Great post. I think the exaggerated fear of women's violence also functions as a reminder to the women that it's women who are in danger of physical violence for speaking up."

Yes.

And men, too.

"It's not meek - it's falsely jocular and hostile. It's not that the male speaker isn't used to not having a say -- it's that they're NOT used to their frame of reference being challenged."

I'm not sure what to make of this combo, Badger: your attempt at mindreading, your singling out of men as the only people who ever use this "tactic" (if it can even be called a "tactic"), and your gross underestimation of how much men's frames of reference get challenged.

Jenny: "I don't think the attempts to deflect criticism are unique to women's studies -- I get them from my students as well, and the stuff I teach is often not considered politically charged."

THANK you!

sb_repr

I think Good to society happens by seeing both sides. In every sort of discussion many phrases are used, including "I may get killed for saying this". I welcome these phrase and try to discuss with the person, gradually that person may or may not changes this phrases, if he or she prefers to use this phrase I think he is right and he has liberty to use this. Putting a rule of not using this phrase is very harmful. Persons who see both sides of the story to help mankind and everyone deal with these and other kind of phrases.
Since feminist are so acoustomed to wrong one sided laws that harm everyone, they do not want to discuss ther other side of story. So only feminists can agree to banning this phrase for any political , sports , literature , history , TV discussions.
If you are not like feminists you are not likely to think about making a law or a rule to control things like this. You then are among people who want good for everyone, and both sides views.
Are feminists in womens study incompetent of tackling the sentence " I may get killed for this" , so they want to hide by making a rule to ban this.

s Lovatt

Too late boys. Man land is going up in flames.
Thats me up on the rooftop doing the dance of victory.
You'se screwed the wrong woman boys, you screwed the wrong woman!
Ha ha, here comes the big wave.
What a great time to be alive.
I wish my grandmother was here to see the Father fall.
It's too late, men's shot at rulership and Divinity has proved itself worthless.

s Lovatt

Too late boys. Man land is going up in flames.
Thats me up on the rooftop doing the dance of victory.
You'se screwed the wrong woman boys, you screwed the wrong woman!
Ha ha, here comes the big wave.
What a great time to be alive.
I wish my grandmother was here to see the Father fall.
It's too late, men's shot at rulership and Divinity has proved itself worthless.

s Lovatt

Too late boys. Man land is going up in flames.
Thats me up on the rooftop doing the dance of victory.
You'se screwed the wrong woman boys, you screwed the wrong woman!
Ha ha, here comes the big wave.
What a great time to be alive.
I wish my grandmother was here to see the Father fall.
It's too late, men's shot at rulership and Divinity has proved itself worthless.

s Lovatt

Too late boys. Man land is going up in flames.
Thats me up on the rooftop doing the dance of victory.
You'se screwed the wrong woman boys, you screwed the wrong woman!
Ha ha, here comes the big wave.
What a great time to be alive.
I wish my grandmother was here to see the Father fall.
It's too late, men's shot at rulership and Divinity has proved itself worthless.

s Lovatt

Too late boys. Man land is going up in flames.
Thats me up on the rooftop doing the dance of victory.
You'se screwed the wrong woman boys, you screwed the wrong woman!
Ha ha, here comes the big wave.
What a great time to be alive.
I wish my grandmother was here to see the Father fall.
It's too late, men's shot at rulership and Divinity has proved itself worthless.

s Lovatt

Too late boys. Man land is going up in flames.
Thats me up on the rooftop doing the dance of victory.
You'se screwed the wrong woman boys, you screwed the wrong woman!
Ha ha, here comes the big wave.
What a great time to be alive.
I wish my grandmother was here to see the Father fall.
It's too late, men's shot at rulership and Divinity has proved itself worthless.

Questioner

I'm curious as to what Hugo was going to say -- that he knew would inflame a room of feminists. That's the question.

jennie

Okay, so I've never taken a Women's Studies course. I did my degree in Classics. I never felt the need to preface anything I said with "Well, I know all the dead Greeks and Romans in the room are going to kill me for this...."

A lot of people have commented on the peceived need to disclaim one's statements when one knows one may be espousing an unpopular view. A number have mentioned that, as people who aren't part of an oppressed group (i.e., white folks in a Native studies class or in a Race and Ethnicity course, men in women's studies classes, straight people in queer studies courses), they need to acknowledge to their peers that they are speaking from a position of privilege. People seem to think "I know you're all going to want to kill me for this ... " (and variations thereupon) represent a way to acknowledge that one is espousing an unpopular view from a position of privilege.

What I think Hugo's commenting on, though, is that this particular diction is not "Okay, I'm aware that, as a person from a privileged background I have no direct experience of [topic], but ...." or even "I may be misunderstanding something here ..." both of which, I think, allow the speaker to acknowledge his or her own position without equating disagreement with violence.

Longhairedweirdo

This is an interesting point. I had a very uncomfortable revelation one day. I'd participated in a lot of rape discussions where a lot of women were really angry, and I felt that they were overgeneralizing and being unfair in many of their criticisms.

In some cases, I was correct, *from my own point of view*.

(e.g., if you want sex, you have to demonstrate that desire, usually through actions. No, it's not a terrible thing to do so (at least, not automatically).)

But I also realized that, while my concern was being told I was wrong, while I was frustrated and sometimes getting hurt feelings, what do those concerns mean next to concerns about getting raped?

That was the first step. I'm saying "Stop talking like that! You're hurting my feelings!" and they were saying "stop talking like that, you're saying things that rapists use to excuse their actions!" Uh, yeah, if it takes a few hurt feelings to help me realize I'm doing that, it's worth it.

And yeah, that's a painful revelation. I wasn't *trying* to be part of the problem, but to some extent, I was. That's why a lot of exercises in changing ideas have to be radical, going to the deep-down roots of the problem.

It wasn't until later that I had another, uglier revelation.

There is probably nothing that a decent guy does or says that is not abused by a predator.

"I thought maybe she was interested, so I made a move on her, and I stopped when she asked me to!" can be said by a decent guy, slowly moving in for a kiss, or attempting to caress, while watching her eyes for signs of happiness or horror. It can also be said by an ass-grabber.

"But why would an ass-grabber say such a thing, since he knows that she wasn't acting in a way that invited an ass-grab?"

Duh. Because he's not talking to her. He's talking to everyone else. And if he's really good, sometimes he even gets her to question whether or not she's right to be so nasty in thinking that he was acting like a predator. Predators lie.

I don't think most guys imagine a predator making excuses when they hear something like that. But it's not like the knowledge that there are predators out there is any big secret, that they're so rare that they're the big exceptions to all general rules.

So, even when I was right from *my* point of view, I wasn't thinking about those predators, even though, if I was drawn out with the right Socratic line of questioning, I'd have realized that they exist and were common enough to be concerned about.

This ties in to the main subject: the idea/fear that women/feminists have irrational reactions to things. Even when we (currently, referring to "we guys") *should* realize that there's often good reason to have strong emotional reactions to something, and even if we're trying to understand, there are aspects of society that can blind us.

Sexual imposition (ranging from gropes on the subways, leers and catcalls, to long term harassment to rape, etc.) is known to be a common problem, and we accept it as a common problem, but when folks see anger about it, it very often is turned into a feeling that there's an unwarranted over-reaction.

"Oh, those crazy women are just so *angry* over this! It's just not rational!"

I remember hearing a story of one college dean trying to paper over a case of date rape, and asking him and her to shake hands once it was done with, and realize how deep a conspiracy it must sometimes seem. The college dean was undoubtedly trying his best to handle what seemed to be a dispute between two students, and undoubtedly felt like he'd accomplished a fine bit of diplomacy. And if he was castigated by that woman, years later, he might well feel he'd been treated unfairly.

Heck, I'll bet some folks who read this are asking themselves "how do we know she really was raped? Maybe it *was* a misunderstanding!" As if that matters... she felt she'd been raped, and was asked to shake hands with the man she felt raped her.

Not merely asked to "not press charges" or told "we can't be sure of what happened, so we can't do anything"... she was asked to forgive and forget, her pain didn't mean anything.

Even if you posit that maybe it was a misunderstanding, think about how that dismisses what's happened to her, and makes her feelings out to be meaningless.

Umm. I'm talking too much, aren't I?

Anyway: yes. A lot of anger is blown off, ignored, dismissed, or considered unjust. It's crazy-making. I'm *really* glad to hear you talk about this.

sb_repr

I think poor men are angry about the false things being said by redical feminists contineously. They know that if they tell the truth they will not get marks, they will be banned from the group.
Only option left with them to try to get even a small amount of justise is by using the phrases like " I may get killed for saying this and acting like defending oneself ".
That is probably the only way to get the truth out, to say the truth.

Innocents men are getting trapped, their lifes destroyed due to press control of Govt. funded feminists and totally illogical worng new LAW made by feminists.

sb_repr

jennie said """
Okay, so I've never taken a Women's Studies course. I did my degree in Classics. I never felt the need to preface anything I said with "Well, I know all the dead Greeks and Romans in the room are going to kill me for this...."

My comments :

Jennie, there is probably no evil in todays world like feminists, so you can not compare them withanything else, it is as simple.

So using " I may be misunderstanding something here .." do not work as you know you are correct so why should you say I may be misunderstanding something here. you very well know that they are contineously lieing, giving distorted one sided picture, and you are definately giong to be socially outcasted by class, given less marks by teacher, for saying the truths , so saying things like " I may be killed for saying this is very much required " being outcasted and given less marks for saying truth are not small things.
http://indiatalking.com/blog/genderjustise/4946/

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Vijay - Meditation Techniques Guide

Great post! A lack of understanding in relationships really brings up anger in all simple acts in life. Diffusing anger serves as a great way to prevent it from getting out of control and causing havoc in life. Meditation and introspection are also very helpful to manage our emotions such as anger in a better way.

Helen

Dr E the point is that men are commonly raped in prisons; women are commonly raped *everywhere*. Women are taught to duck and weave and avoid angering men because provoking male anger is dangerous, wheras the worst expression of female anger is likely to be verbal aggression. The sort of ducking you are talking about from a male perspective is more a) patronising and b) common courtesy to fellow human beings.

Also have you read about the Sudan Junta? Or any Amnesty International reports? Women, as well as being valuable members of the armed forces - though forbidden from attending frontline attacks for some reason - are often victims of forced displacement, rape as a weapon of war, kidnap, forcible impregnation, murder (despite being non combatants) and other human rights violations.

Women need slightly more consideration because society is skewed in favour of the male gender. Think of it in these terms; white men still have more privilege than black men. They also have more privilege than white women, in terms of easier employment, higher wages, normative discourse. That tiny fear response a male feels in a women's studies class is a microcosm of how a woman feels every single day. The fear of not being taken seriously, of not being important enough, of being in an environment that is not hospitable for you and not designed for your habitation.

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