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April 11, 2006

Comments

Hugo

Tedious?

You found my sore spot! ;-)

Txfeminist

Hi Hugo,

I have never read your blog before, or posted here before. So, I was surprised to find you linking to me in criticism of my comments about the Delbarton School.

By way of introduction, I'm Txfeminist. Have you read my blog? I am a victim advocate for women and children survivors of violence, and I find your comments above problematic.

I have not "gone after" the school. What does that mean, anyway? How is contrasting the school's apparent values with the apparent values of one of it's attendees "going after" the school?

Do I not have a right to make any comments about Ryan McFadyen's background? About how certain aspects of his upbringing might -gasp!- be directly related to his current behaviors and attitudes?

Perhaps you are offended because you think my comments mock Christianity. yes, the school is a Christian school. Do you think they are, therefore, above comment?

What I mock is the complete lack of Christian values which Ryan McFadyen demonstrates. That suggests to me that he either picked up nothing from his time in school, or they simply didn't try very hard to teach him any kind of values. Yet, they say a lot about it on their website.

My point, which you have also apparently missed, is that people like Ryan McFadyen are, to some degree, a product of their environment. Something in his background led him to a sense of entitlement, arrogance, misogyny and a sexual reaction to violence. Do you have a problem with me "going after" that? Do you think I should not look to see where men like this come from?

I don't know, it could be related to growing up in a million dollar home, surrounded by other privileged white boys, with little exposure to other human beings or the experiences of other human beings in the world, being given the best of everything and expecting it. An environment that could actually lead to the extreme othering of human beings, given the right propensities toward it in a person's character?

Come on, Hugo. Don't take pot-shots at me. It's really not a polite way of first introduction, at least.

And furthermore: you can call Ryan your "brother" who deserves your "respect" as much as you want. You can chant all the Christian sound-bites you want. But sayin' isn't doin'. And if Ryan ever had a chance at this woman's respect prior to that vicious, sick email, he has certainly lost it now.

Noumena

Mr Bad, was the deep irony in your first, third and fourth paragraphs intentional?

ginmar

Hugo, if you can't see the difference between a guy who wants to kill women and the women he wnats to kill, you're just not a feminist. Forget this brotherly love shit.

I'll start embracing rapists and thugs as 'my brothers' when they stop raping my sisters. There is no equality here. The fact is, some people are not worthy of equal respect.

Mr. Bad

ginmar said: "I'll start embracing rapists and thugs as 'my brothers' when they stop raping my sisters. There is no equality here. The fact is, some people are not worthy of equal respect."

However, according to the news:

DURHAM, N.C. — DNA testing failed to connect any members of the Duke University lacrosse team to the alleged rape of a stripper, attorneys for the athletes said Monday.

Citing DNA test results delivered by the state crime lab to police and prosecutors a few hours earlier, the attorneys said the test results prove their clients did not sexually assault and beat a stripper hired to perform at a March 13 team party.

No charges have been filed in the case.

"There is no DNA evidence that shows she was touched by any of these boys," said Attorney Joe Cheshire, who represents one of the team's captains.

Is ginmar's attitude feminist 'justice' or is 'guilty until proven innocent' more of that "male privilege" I keep hearing about?

It looks to me like this woman deserves a little disrespect for what appears to at the very least be perjury and filing false police reports. And if she's lying about the "rape" who's to say she isn't lying about everything?

Apparently this woman is continuing the behavioral patterns of the past, but somehow I feel that feminists here and elsewhere will still argue that she deserves "respect" for some inexplicable reason. Never mind that she already ruined a coach's career and likely the presumably innocent Lacrosse team members as well. Granted, new evidence could be uncovered but for now it's not looking good for her.

Hugo

Txfeminist, I was referring to this final line of yours (the one with the picture of women as meat):

"So how come when the boys leave, the inside of their brains look like this?"

That was "boys" in the plural, not just Ryan. How is that not a sweeping generalization?

And let me say that "respect" is not the same as "approval". I can tell someone that what he's done is wrong, without losing sight of his intrinsic value as a human being. I can hate actions, but not people.

Hugo

And indeed, Txfeminist, I've been "lurking" at your blog for a while, and I like it very much. I just didn't like the broad brush you used on Delbarton.

One of my former students is awaiting trial on rape and murder charges; I am quite confident my words and actions (and PCC's environment) had little to do with his decisions. I suspect Delbarton's involvement in Ryan's email is about the same.

evil_fizz

It looks to me like this woman deserves a little disrespect for what appears to at the very least be perjury and filing false police reports. And if she's lying about the "rape" who's to say she isn't lying about everything?

You know, this is exactly the same trap you have just accused others of falling into. Lack of DNA evidence is not proof of perjury.

Hugo, I have a problem with this sentence as well: But Ryan is as much my brother as the victim in this case is my sister. I suspect that what you mean here is brother/sister in the Christian sense, but it appears to be a more general usage. How did you intend it?

Mr. Bad

evil fizz, fair enough to a point, however, I did qualify my statements with "appears to" in the first sentence while the second sentence is clearly speculation on my part. Contrast that with ginmar and others, who appear to be absolutely certain that a rape occurred. I personally think it's preferable to err on the side of 'innocent until proven guilty,' however, at point the weight of evidence should be used to formulate hypotheses, e.g., that the men may have committed rape and that the woman is lying. IMO the weight of evidence shows the latter and does not support the former.

Irregardless of how this turns out, because of feminist lies and propaganda that "women never lie about rape" in cases like this, the men's names have been broadcast far and wide in the MSM while the alleged victim has for the most part been given a pass. Therefore those men are already irreparably damaged by her (who BTW has a very long rap sheet). This sort of thing definitely needs to change.

Txfeminist

Hugo, I think you are confusing "respect" with "compassion".

As for my last comment, yes, it was a tad snarky. While I do make a point with the Delbarton post, and a serious one, I did employ a rather satirical tone.

Further, you may want to consider this: "Violence against women occurs most often, Smith says, "in sex-segregated situations where women's voices are absent. ... Furthermore, gang rapes are almost always associated with these types of sex-segregated institutions and are rare in other circumstances."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/lacrosse/2006-04-07-violence-allegations_x.htm?POE=SPOISVA

Txfeminist

"situations where women's voices are absent."

being the key phrase there.

Hugo

Folks, I do tend to use "brother" and "sister" in the Christian sense.

I use "respect" literally: re-spectare, roughly translated from Latin as "to see the thing as it is". I mean "respect" in the sense of seeing people as Jesus sees them -- and that of course includes compassion.

Txfeminist

It seems like in order to "see the thing as it is", if we are talking about Ryan McFadyen or Delbarton school, for example, then I have to deconstruct, analyse and consider how each operates in the bigger picture. I think schools like the Delbarton school have some problems. (Snobbery, elitism and classism are really only a few of those problems.)

However, I'm not sure that your ex-student at PCC is an adequate comparator, though, because I don't know anything about his/her background, and I know little about the school.

I am wary of comparing apples and oranges. I don't think a generalization can be made that says, student X went to school Y. Then he did some bad things. Student Z went to school W. Then he did some bad things. Both students went to school; therefore it's the school's fault bad things happened. Or, it's not the school's fault in one case, so it's not the school's fault in either.

Clearly, reductionism and problems with correlation/causation are not going to make a case either way.

However, it's worth pointing out that there might be connections between a life of isolation and privilege/entitlement, and an inability to relate, show respect, or have compassion for other human beings outside the range of that person's experience. What other definition of xenophobia is there?

I don't think that examining these things is the same as calling up a stereotype; rather, an attempt to connect the dots.

Honestly, I'm far more concerned by the lack of respect towards women shown by the Ryan McFadyens of the world.

Hugo

That's fair, Txfeminist; my quibble was really with the one line I pointed out. I went to a school not all that different from Delbarton for a while, though it was here on the West Coast and thus perhaps less richly imbued with self-importance. I was kicked out (a story for another blog), but still wince when all those who go to prep schools are seen as elitists with a sense of entitlement. Some end up jerks, others end up with a sense of paternalistic noblesse oblige, others with tremendous reservoirs of compassion.

Antigone

I agree, to a point. While I hate rapists, I also am not in the "Rip their balls off" camp of punishment. If they are tried and convicted, their punishments should still be rehabilitory as opposed to retributionary (although honestly, I'd prefer pre-emptively not training men to rape). I'm also willing to say that the Duke victim was raped. I'm not assuming she's lying, or that she's hatefully hurting this men. If these boys are proven not guilty (note, they aren't proven "innocent"), it's still not enough to put in a false rape accusation. They may have done it, and there's not enough evidence to convict. Or, she was raped, and it wasn't these men.

Frankly, the fact that Mr. Bad goes to "she's lying and OMG look how this hurts the men involved" makes me not want to be left alone with him.

mythago

I'm going to leave aside the rape case itself

Guess not everybody was paying attention.

What's especially bizarre about the mindset you quoted is the way it conflates sexual immorality with 'disrespect'--a woman who is sexually open, or is a sex worker, is not merely behaving badly, but she is behaving in a way that is disrespectful of others by doing so. At the same time, the men who benefit from her behavior (the sex partner, the guy at the bachelor party) are not only free of this taint of 'disrespect', but they are entitled to then turn around and behave disrespectfully to her.

Lynn Gazis-Sax

Yeah, that part puzzles me no end. How can a sex worker doing her job possibly be disrespectful to the people who hired her?

Beste

""Yeah, that part puzzles me no end. How can a sex worker doing her job possibly be disrespectful to the people who hired her""

Well, nobody here is claiming that sex worker thats just doing her job is being disrepectful to the people who hired her. The fact is if the sex worker isn't doing her properly(ie: Trying to rip her cilents off, giving poor service)then she is disrepecting them.

The Gonzman

isolation and privilege/entitlement, and an inability to relate, show respect, or have compassion for other human beings outside the range of that person's experience. What other definition of xenophobia is there?

Would that include a school - or, more properly, a school system - whose subculture includes not associating with the "stuck up" county schools (Isolation), a sense that they are shortchanged by not getting a cut of suburnban taxes for inner city schools (entitlement), where the "Rich kids" concerns are dismissed (Inability to relate - "What problems can they have? They're rich and have everything), dismissal of them (disrespect) as "Preppies," and a sense of smugness and "They got what was coming to them" attitude when the suburban kids get into trouble, demonstrating a lack of compassion?

Or is that "different?"

Noumena

""Yeah, that part puzzles me no end. How can a sex worker doing her job possibly be disrespectful to the people who hired her""

Well, nobody here is claiming that sex worker thats just doing her job is being disrepectful to the people who hired her. The fact is if the sex worker isn't doing her properly(ie: Trying to rip her cilents off, giving poor service)then she is disrepecting them.

If you go back to the earlier thread on this, that seems to be precisely what Mr Bad was arguing. Mythago (I think; apologies if I'm misremembering) and I both called him on this, and he said we were missing the point.

Lynn Gazis-Sax

Well, nobody here is claiming that sex worker thats just doing her job is being disrepectful to the people who hired her. The fact is if the sex worker isn't doing her properly(ie: Trying to rip her cilents off, giving poor service)then she is disrepecting them.

Ah. So:

because women have learned to act less respectably - and at times outright disrespectful

means that strippers now give poorer service than they used to, back in the day of Gypsy Rose Lee?

Or perhaps it's the case that women - but only women - have started, over the past few decades, to steal on the job?

belledame222

I understand that you're coming at this from a particular Christian POV at least as much as anything else. I am trying to respect this while acknowledging that my own worldview. metaphysics included is...rather different.

While academically I can get behind the notion that we're all human, after all, that compassion for "humanity" includes me. And my own humanity means that I have a *lot* of feelings here, not all of them rational or "fair." And frankly I have no compunction about feeling like I want to rip the fuckers' balls off. Does that mean I literally would do it, or think the boys shouldn't have their day in court? No. (well, probably, the former).

But I am a fuck of a lot more sympathetic toward the women than I am the men here. And I don't really buy the whole "love the sinner, not the sin" business, I have to say, at least not in practice.

And I am with txfeminist on the fisking of the prep school. Nobody said that all preppies are rapists or all Delbarton students are criminals or anything of that sort. Frankly I'm just not in the mood for "butbutbut the privileged overentitled elite are people too." Especially since the fisking was about examining the attitudes that such schools might be based on. Particularly the whole sublimation of sexuality into "healthier" pursuits like lacrosse, and the question of whether hostile attitudes toward sex and women might in fact be more rampant in all-male environments.

It seems to me that if you really want to be "compassionate" toward the perpetrators here, in any way, you have to start with a sharply critical examination of their background, how they might have got there; and that includes stuff like Delbarton. Otherwise you're right back into "how monstrous and inexplicable, tsk tsk" or even "I don't believe they did it at all, because...I can't." Which helps no one.

belledame222

per respect: I certainly believe in *starting* with the premise that we all deserve respect. That is, I approach people in good faith, first. However, if they keep violating that good faith, after a certain point--and it falls far short of seventy times seven--I will lose that respect. And people will have to take certain actions to earn it back, depending on context. In some cases it may not be possible to ever completely repair the damage. It's just how it is. I get the concept of "grace" and the notion that one grants absolution to someone because they need it, not because they deserve it. But I don't think it's my place to grant that. At any rate, unless I am in a place where I feel that i can grant that, I'm not going to do it. Not if it feels inauthentic and harmful to me. Like I said: I'm human too.

Which is not to say "respect" equals "basic human rights," here. I don't think people ever "earn" torture, for instance. But in a way that's as much about not losing our *own* humanity in the process, for me.

But in terms of who gets credibility? Who gets my time and attention and trust? No, it's not unconditional. It's just not.

belledame222

As for sweeping stuff about "women" (all 345,654,999,765 of us, especially the one with the goiter) earning men's trust" (which they've/we've broken by "acting dirty" I guess, 'cuz sex workers are dirty)--you know, I kind of don't even want to touch that, 'cuz I'm just thinking, Oh, where to begin.

yeah. It's a bit like touching down on a small, hostile, alien planet, to read stuff like that, for me. I just honestly don't know where to start.

Mr. Bad

Noumena said: "If you go back to the earlier thread on this, that seems to be precisely what Mr Bad was arguing. Mythago (I think; apologies if I'm misremembering) and I both called him on this, and he said we were missing the point."

Noumena, et al., I'd love to respond to this post and indeed I tried several times to answer this but found that either Hugo or his surrogate decided to ban me, so I will not be responding to any posts - and indeed will not be posting here any longer - until I'm granted free, unfettered and uncensored access. Also, I noticed that earlier posts of mine have been deleted, apparently not by Hugo but by the person who appears to have been appointed by him to moderate in his absence. Thus, I will no longer participate in this blog until I'm given an apology for being censored and am given the access that I had before.

So until then, Ciao.

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