Another really long one on pro-feminism and the sex industry: UPDATED

I'd like to respond to some of the comments in my post below about stripping.

One of the important things I need to remember is to articulate a specifically male pro-feminist perspective on issues like stripping and sex work.  Rather than just respond one by one to all of the criticisms of my strong anti-porn, anti-strip club stance, let me offer an overview of where it is that "I'm coming from" on this issue.

First off, it is damn near impossible for a man to take an anti-porn, anti-stripping stance without being perceived as being anti-sex worker.   Some of this is my own fault.   Either I'm construed as arguing that all female sex-workers are victims who need to be rescued, or folks assume that I see them as selfish narcissists who are "letting down the feminist side".  I'm trying to avoid taking either stance, and I'm not doing a very good job so far.  So while I regroup and prepare for another post on that subject, let me deal with the aspect of this issue where I do feel far more comfortable: writing about men who "consume" porn and other products of the sex industry.

If you do a Google search for "overcoming porn" or "stop going to strip clubs" on the Internet, you're going to find that virtually the only organized groups challenging men to change their behavior are religious organizations.  There are dozens and dozens of Christian ministries in this country calling men to sexual accountability; Promise Keepers chief among them.  They do important work, and I have many friends in these groups.  Heck, I've even belonged to one or two of them.  What these groups do get right is that they understand that the sex industry doesn't just hurt those who are the paid workers within it; it has devastating consequences for the consumer and his family.

But outside of the religious blogosphere, there is very little male writing about the problem of the sex industry.  Furthermore, I almost never read posts about porn addiction/sex addiction on feminist blogs.  We debate legalizing prostitution, and we all wax eloquently (or not so eloquently) about "gazes" and "subjectivities" and "perfomativities" and "agency."  We all sound very sophisticated!  But the reality is that millions and millions of American boys and men are spending hours staring at porn and masturbating to it, they're spending a fortune at strip clubs, and they are experiencing very real consequences.  When feminist blogs do address these consequences, they understandably approach them out of concern for the women who are negatively impacted by men who use porn or visit strip clubs or consume sex workers.

But as a man who cares deeply about other men, I am grieved by how few non-Christian resources there are for men who are struggling with issues of sexual compulsion.  (If that seems too strong a word, please understand that I've met a lot of guys in my day -- and I've met very, very few whose sexual behavior around porn/prostitutes/strippers wasn't compulsive to one degree or another.  The power of sexual imagery and fantasy is so great that it tends to to turn folks who are remarkably self-controlled in other areas into embarrassed, ashamed addicts.)  As a Christian, I have lots of resources if I choose; my friends who don't share my faith commitment (and are not likely to convert) have far fewer.

One conversation pro-feminist men need to have with each other revolves around our own feelings and experiences with the sex industry.  If you're a pro-feminist man, you can't live your life in compartments. I simply don't believe it's within the range of human possibility to see women as autonomous agents of worth and value, with desires and wants of their own on the one hand -- and at the same time be viewing images of hundreds of images of women on your computer  or gazing hungrily at a naked stripper gyrating on a stage. If sex touches us so deeply, it defies reason to suggest that any of us can keep our private behaviors from bleeding over into everything else we do.  That's not just a Christian notion, that's sound psychology.   But before we can all agree on that, pro-feminist men need to share their stories around the sex industry, not to shame ourselves but to see how universal our experience has been -- and to see the damage it has done.

What I don't like about the state of the male pro-feminist blogosphere is that so many folks spend a lot of time deflecting the conversation away from their own behavior.   Lots of men comment on lots of feminist blogsites, and because these men hold solid opinions on reproductive rights and other public issues, their pro-feminist credentials don't get challenged.  Now, I'm the last person to challenge anyone's credentials about anything, but I do believe that there's got to be more to being a pro-feminist man than holding a certain set of political and social convictions. To put it another way, I don't just want to know what you believe, I want to know what you live out in your private life.  And if you're a heterosexual pro-feminist man, I want to know if your sexual behavior with women (in reality or fantasy) matches your public commitments.   Tom, Dick, and Harry can wax eloquently in the comments sections of dozens of blogs about egalitarianism and justice.  But I want to know, what do they look at on their computers when no one is around?  And, even more importantly, how does what they look at affect their relationships with women? 

To put it really bluntly, if you want to be a pro-feminist man you've got to honor your commitments with your mouth, your mind, your heart, your hand, and your penis.  Few of us will do this easily at first; learning to live with that kind of integrity (or wholeness) takes a long time.  But once you do get there, you become a resource for other men who are leading double or triple lives, filled with shame and embarrassment and a deep sense of their own weakness.  Through a hell of a lot of work (and even more grace), I've created a life for myself where there is no discrepancy between my public pronouncements and my private behavior.  I have accountability partners who know every website I visit; I like knowing that I will be challenged if they see something on my browser report that doesn't seem right.  If my students, my blog readers, my friends could watch me on a hidden camera, they might see me singing silly songs to myself, or talking to my pencil or picking my nose, but they wouldn't see me directing any of my sexual energy anywhere other than towards my wife.  And even if -- God forbid -- I were to be single again, I am confident that my commitment to staying away from the sex industry would remain firm and absolute.

That last paragraph sounds boastful.  That's not my goal!  Look, without getting into hurtful details, I've made a huge number of mistakes in this area.  I've lived a quintuple life based upon privately objectifying the very class of human beings whose dignity I was publicly defending.  That didn't work so well; heck, it nearly killed me to know what an absolute and utter fraud I was.

So the upshot of this very long post is this: men who care about feminism need to be willing to match their language and their lives.   When it comes to discussions of sex work and sexuality, we mustn't hide behind academic jargon. We can't issue sweeping defenses or condemnations of the sex industry without first being honest about our own personal responses to that industry.  That doesn't mean that every male pro-feminist blogger has to go public about his private life (not everyone has tenure!)  But it does mean that when it comes to something so profoundly powerful as sex, it's absurd to pretend that any of us can discuss this without our own experiences, fantasies, and sense of shame coming into play.

UPDATE:  As always, some folks just don't want to discuss this issue head on.  This is not a thread to discuss the role of women in sex work.  This is a thread focusing on men as consumers, as customers, as clients -- and how the sex industry (stripping and porn in particular) shapes their lives.  This is not a male-only thread, but it is a thread that focuses on the impact on the male consumer and those around him.  If you want to comment on the impact on female sex workers, the earlier post is the place to be.

Comments

[elizabeth]

I know groups of men who regularly talk and organize regarding the dangers and difficulties of pornography and the sex trade; Gay groups regarding explotation, eliminating recruitment in places like Prague, eliminating meth use, and other non-safe practices (I wish I could find the site that had the cartoons on LA TV on veneral diseases - until Bush cut thier funding).

It is true that I know a few guys that seem to have trouble holding a conversation while young women walk by, but then I have had the same problem with women who went to see k.d. lang or Tipping the Velvet.

I agree that some guys seem to be very focused on porn, and no, it doesn't make me love them more - but neither do I want to exist in a sexless world - I still want to live in a world where Angelia Jolie is desirable (for both men and women) and where Johnny Depp is desirable (for both men and women). Is there really no way that guys/girls can seperate "attraction" from "thier only use to me is as a sex object"?

[kate.d.]

we all wax eloquently (or not so eloquently) about "gazes" and "subjectivities" and "perfomativities" and "agency."

ah, grad school! how i don't miss being up to my neck in these "theoretical" terms at the end of a 90 minute class :)

as much as i'm (often) loathe to admit it now, though, sometimes these theoretical ideas can be useful in trying to get a handle on the practical. for instance, subjectivity. in the prior post, antigone asks why anyone would lust after an object and not a person. to me, the short answer is to assert his own subjectivity. and if this is the model that one follows - asserting your subjectivity by actively objectifying someone else - then it's a process that's going to need to be continually repeated. you need to keep reasserting that you are indeed a subject, not an object. so the cycle of porn viewing/blonde jokes/physical abuse/street harassment/whatever continues.

of course this is reductive, and doesn't take into account biological urges, personal circumstances, etc etc. but it's just one potential way of thinking about why porn consumption can often become and/or be seen as a compulsion.

[Mermade]

Is it possible to masturbate without lust involved? My boyfriend, who has struggled with porn and masturbation, says that it is impossible to masturbate without using some sort of lustful stimulation (except in the cases of children, which is an entirely different topic). Anyway, we know lusting creates many problems, problems which I have personally witness and been VERY hurt by. Therefore, if it is impossible to masturbate without hurtful lustful thoughts, should masturbation itself be endorsed as healthy if it cannot be done without damaging thoughts?

I have always wondered how feminism views women masturbating to porn depicting naked men (Playgirl, etc.) I am firmly against the sex industry and I wholeheartedly agree that men must give up thier lust after women in order to be pro-feminist. However, I have scarcely heard about how people feel regarding women lusting and masturbating after men and whether or not feminism sees that as wrong. Granted, the porn industy is mostly aimed at men's interest. However, many women lust after porn as well, and I don't believe that's right either. (That kind of fits in with "me too" feminism). I would like to hear yours and other people's thoughts on that.

[Hugo]

Mermade, we'll be dealing with some of this in your class in the next few weeks -- and of course, in class, I'll take an even-handed (sorry) approach to the topic.

Here on this blog, it may be time for a long post on this very sensitive (sorry again) subject. It does tend to arouse (sorry thrice) people, 'cause folks filter it through their own experience, and they tend to feel strongly. Patience!

[Dustin]

Hugo, I'll be honest with you, since you asked -- I don't like strip clubs. I don't even like stripper-like come-ons from my own sexual partners. There's something about it all I find incredibly unerotic. Of course, I'm not much into affectation of other sorts, either (see my posts on S/M).

Here's a story: I missed most of the panel I described in my comments on your previous post. I misunderstood the description -- the title was "Stripping for Everyone", and it said there'd be lapdancing, so I assumed it would be about learning how to lapdance; as one of only 2 males in attendance, and as a teacher among students (none of them mine, except the other male) I felt I should be elsewhere. But on top of that, I thought "oh, go[sh], I don't want someone lapdancing at me!" It just makes me very, very uncomfortable -- I don't know how to respond, I'm usually very reserved and am not really willing to express appreciation and/or lust, and I don't like the feeling of disconnection *I* get.

When I was 18, a friend introduced me to a full-nude bar in San Diego. No alcohol = 18+. I went a couple times with him, a few times alone. It was grown-up, transgressive, it promised sexiness (did I mention I was a virgin at the time?), but eventually I realized that it was pretty boring, and it was pretty fake. Here's the funny thing -- I was thinking, "I'm so much more than this pair of eyes, I don't want to be appreciated (or not appreciated) on the basis of my wallet!"

Since then, I've found myself in adult clubs twice. About 10 years ago, my brother and his friend decided it would be fun to take our dads to a strip club for Father's Day. I wasn't much into the idea, but they were set on it, and to be honest, I had a great time. Adult clubs are spaces designed to encourage male homosocial bonding, and what else is Father's Day about? Of course, I didn't have much money, so I didn't have to deal with the pressure to buy dances -- I just sent them to my brother and his friend, who were both much better off than I.

A few years later, my brother got married, and in Vegas there's really no excuse to not have the traditional strib-club bachelor party. Again, I didn't have much money, and I was deeply committed to my now-ex. This time no amount of demonstrated lack of funds was dissuading the dancers from pestering me for dances. I didn't want to be there in the first place, and to be honest, I began to feel a little bit violated -- I'm too nice to say "no" very firmly, so the advances kept coming, and I simply did not want a private dance.

So this isn't something I personally enjoy. But I'm not foolish enough to believe that my particular values and personality quirks are anything like typical of men in our society. And I'm also not willing to dismiss or condemn the motivations of men who might be very, very unlike me. What I do know is that the relationships between dancers and their clients are very conflicted and contradictory -- after all, they're *human * rleationships, and human relationships are a mess.

Last thing: Does it not strike you as odd that the only groups calling for "sexual accountability" and worrying about the ill effect of stripping on the male psyche are the groups that believe stripping *should* have an ill effect on the male psyche? I mean, Christianity is not exactly known for its comfortable relationship with sexuality, especially female sexuality! Is it possible that the same set of beliefs can sustain two opposed arguments -- one that women's sexuality needs to be controlled (and by extension women need to be controlled) and the other that women's sexuality needs to be free (and by extension women can then be free?)

[djw]

Since you asked: The 15 minutes I spent in a strip club were among the most depressing 15 minutes of my life. I walked out on a good friend's bachelor party, which I felt awful about, but I couldn't take any more of it. The energy on both sides was toxic and just soul-sucking. I had some mild interest in seeing Playboys when I was 13-15, but since then it's been a tough call whether it's more more offensive or unerotic. You've posted on stuff that's challenged my complacencies about my behavior and my feminist commitments before (namely, a willingness to call bullshit on homosocial mildly sexist discourse) but this one's just about the easiest living out of my personal commitments. Frankly, my own disgust makes it hard for my to be sympathetic (let alone empathetic) for those who struggle with it, which is probably unfair of me, but it's my honest reaction.

[Random Lurker]

Elizabeth essentially made my comment for me- and saved me the trouble of having to compose it.

I do think that it should be possible to have sexy images/movies/thoughts of attractive people without the hate speech. I don't think that male sexuality is *innately* about inflicting pain, hating and destroying.

It seems to me that it's just the way boys and men are socialized. If we could socialize the next generation- and de-program the gentlemen with us right now- to see a nice-looking naked lady without immediately feeling hatred and contempt for her, then we'd end up with sexy entertainment that wasn't about hatred at all. And really, who wouldn't prefer positive material to negative- there would still be just as many naked boobs.

I don't think sex is a bad thing, I don't think looking at pretty people naked is a bad thing. I do think it's the emotional intent behind it that counts.

Actually.. I wonder if all that hatred doesn't just come out of cultural shame about sex and desire.

[Antigone]

See, I honestly don't think masturbation is unhealthy, but mainly because I don't view "lust" as inheirantly objectifying.

Lust simply denotes arousal. Arousal is not objectifying, it simply is.

I think making strippers into non-humans is more harmful than having been lusted after. But then again, I suppose from that statement one could claim that waiting tables is harmful, because to many patrons you are an object for their convinience.

So I guess I'm back to why stripping is any worse than any other job where you are treated as non-human.

[Hugo]

Antigone, waitresses at coffee shops may be treated poorly, but we don't see the high correlation between waitressing at coffee shops and drug abuse. There is something about stripping that leaves a great many women feeling alienated and numb in a way that is fundamentally unique.

But let's keep this thread on topic -- why pro-feminist men shouldn't be using the sex industry.

[Mr. Bad]

Hugo, you speak a great deal about heterosexual men and porn, so I'd like to know if you are consistent across sexuality and/or gender. For instance, what do you think about gay and lesbian porn? Or heterosexual women as consumers of porn? Are all consumers of porn to blame for the sex industry, or do you only blame heterosexual men because it's PC to do so and quite un-PC to come down equally hard on homosexuals and hetero women? And finally, you delve a great deal into how heterosexual men who consume porn exploit women, but what about the undeniable case that women who peddle porn are most certainly exploiting the men who consume it: Where do you stand on the women's responsibility in the business? And finally, you're comment that you're only interested in "reaching one man at a time" sounds like a blantant, shameless cop-out designed to allow you to avoid dealing with your own personal biases and inconsistencies in all this.

To me you sound like the right-wingers who beat their chests re. the so-called "war on drugs" and insist on focusing on the consumers, i.e., busting ordinary people who are simply users instead of going after the pushers and higher-level drug dealers. We've seen what a completer disaster that approach has had. I argue that the porn industry is much the same as the illegal drug industry in this regard, and thus your bottom-up approach is doomed to a similar failure that we see in the 'war on drugs.' Sounds like a waste of time to me.

I'm not convinced that you're consistent about these things, so I invite you to try and prove me wrong.

[Mr. Bad]

Hugo said: "Antigone, waitresses at coffee shops may be treated poorly, but we don't see the high correlation between waitressing at coffee shops and drug abuse. There is something about stripping that leaves a great many women feeling alienated and numb in a way that is fundamentally unique."

This is a logical fallacy Hugo. Not only does correlation tell us nothing about causation, but it ignores confounding variables (i.e., interacting cofactors) such as poverty, etc. There's no reason to believe that it's just as likely - if not moreso - that instead of drug use being some sort of 'occupational hazard' for female sex workers, women who are prone to use drugs are drawn to work in the sex industry. In other words, those women are using before taking on sex work, and perhaps are in the industry in order to pay for their ongoing habits.

[Hugo]

Mr. Bad, as far as porn goes, I'm consistent. Changing the sex of the people in the images or the sex of the person masturbating to that image doesn't change the essential nature of the activity, which is to see another human being as existing solely for your own pleasure. I'm not an enemy of pleasure -- I'm an enemy of the notion that pleasure can be divorced from responsibility for another human being's emotional and spiritual well-being.

As for the analogy to the war on drugs, my experience in recovery taught me one thing. You can't solve any social problem by going after "supply"; you only solve it by going after "demand." The "demand" side is where we should focus our energies.

[mythago]

There is something about stripping that leaves a great many women feeling alienated and numb in a way that is fundamentally unique.

Sure. Waitress aren't assumed to be fallen women and fair game for any abuse you care to heap on them, and clearly prostitutes on the side.

And, much as I don't want to give the old boy a heart attack, Mr. Bad is right. "Lots of them use drugs" is the argument many of your co-religionists hurl at gay men, you're aware.

[Hugo]

For heaven's sakes, mythago. Being gay is an issue of IDENTITY. Being a stripper is an issue of ACTIVITY.

But let's keep the comments about strippers in the previous post from now on. This thread is about men using strip clubs, porn, and masturbation -- not. Let's try and keep the two threads distinct. (I apologize for my own role in creating the thread drift.)

[Antigone]

Sorry, didn't mean to do a thread drift.

[Mr. Bad]

Supply and demand - Ok, I hear you regarding addressing demand, but you still seem to want to give the supply side a pass. No way is that going to work. No way.

As to the issue re. the emotional and mental state of the players in the porn industry, I'd say that all players have a lot of issues. Sure, there are some perfectly normal, healthy strippers - just like there are some perfectly healthy, normal consumers - but IMO for the most part all of the pariticipants have serious issues to deal with, and hopefully work out.

So how come you only want to criticize and otherwise address only the heterosexual male consumers? Seems like a major cop-out and profoundly inconsistent to me.

[mythago]

Sorry, Hugo, is this thread for men only? That wasn't clear.

[Catty]

Considering that heterosexual males are the largest market of porn consumers in the US and worldwide (I believe from the last stats I saw, straight male consumers make up over 80% of porn consumed in the US), I can see why Hugo would focus on porn for straight men. Generally speaking, it makes sense to attack the largest porn-watching population if you're an anti-porn crusader, does it not? So, I don't find Hugo's position to be a major cop-out or inconsistent in this case.

I also disagree with you regarding your comment on the industry, Mr. Bad. I've known many people in the porn industry as well as the stripping industry. In fact, I can say I'm more familiar with both industries than your average person. Many of my friends out of film school did what many, many film school students do- work in the porn industry (as grip, editors, anything) while savin money and looking for "real" opportunities. It's a common way to stay active in the industry and not get too rusty. I'm not saying that the industry is mostly chipper and healthy people, but I hate all the stereotypes bandied about, because many of the people in both industries are NOT stereotypes- they're people, they're individuals, and they deserve to seen as such, period.

[Catty]

"For heaven's sakes, mythago. Being gay is an issue of IDENTITY. Being a stripper is an issue of ACTIVITY."

Actually, many anti-gay crusaders would say otherwise.

Ooops, thread drift again.

[Hugo]

No, it is not a thread for men only -- but it is a thread to discuss male participation as consumers in the sex industry. That needs to be the only topic here.

[Mr. Bad]

Catty said: "I also disagree with you regarding your comment on the industry, Mr. Bad. I've known many people in the porn industry as well as the stripping industry. In fact, I can say I'm more familiar with both industries than your average person. Many of my friends out of film school did what many, many film school students do- work in the porn industry (as grip, editors, anything) while savin money and looking for "real" opportunities. It's a common way to stay active in the industry and not get too rusty. I'm not saying that the industry is mostly chipper and healthy people, but I hate all the stereotypes bandied about, because many of the people in both industries are NOT stereotypes- they're people, they're individuals, and they deserve to seen as such, period."

I too have known a number of people in the industry, not just a number of workers but consumers as well, and I agree that the stereotype of the producers and consumers of porn being somehow abnormal is overblown. However, my point has been that there is no evidence that the consumers of porn are any more or less 'troubled' than the producers. Further, focusing solely on the consumers won't solve whatever problems one might percieve from porn.

I personally don't believe that producing or consuming porn is any more problematic than many other commercial ventures, and that we should do nothing to infringe on others' rights to live as they wish; adult porn is legal so that should be the end of it. And just like any other legal commodity, if you don't like it then don't buy it. However, if one does have a problem with pornography then it is disingenuous and inconsistent to focus soley on the consumer when looking to solve perceived problems. Issues re. objectification, exploitation run in both directions and IMO neither producer or consumer is any more or less guilty or guilt-free than the other.

[Mr. Bad]

Hugo said: "I'm not an enemy of pleasure -- I'm an enemy of the notion that pleasure can be divorced from responsibility for another human being's emotional and spiritual well-being."

This issue of men's responsibility for women's "emotional and spiritual well-being" is a well-honed riff of yours Hugo - you seem to post on it at least once a week - but it's a very slippery slope. At what point does making men responsible for the emotional and spiritual well-being of women become patronizing and infantilizing of those women? In most all these types of posts you seem to be saying that women are so weak and incompetant that they can't be trusted to take care of themselves, so we men must literally walk on eggs at evey turn so that we don't hurt the poor dears' sensibilities, feelings, etc.

I think that women are quite capable of choosing whether or not to engage in the sex industry, and that it's quite Ok for men to consume it. Heck, I believe that in many ways it's a lot safer and wiser for men to hire professionals for this service rather than risk decades of involuntary servitude to a woman who likely is an amateur vis-a-vis the 'product' anyway. IMO it's a more honest and preferable arrangement for everybody, except perhaps the amateur who's been passed-over for a better 'product.'

Women have used their sexuality as currency to buy men's services for millenia - heck, there are references to it in The Bible - so perhaps this is the main reason why many women and feminists don't like the sex industry. Do you think that it could boil down to the simple case that women don't like the competition from other women for men's attention, especially when men get the choice to work with a professional who is willing to honor a contract that allows him to recieve these types of services for a fee agreed upon up-front and without the risk of dealing with an ongoing bad emotional relationship, allegations of and/or unwanted paternity, CS, etc.? It seems quite plausible to me that much of the types of objections you repeatedly raise could be based on resentment due to the fact that the sex industry dilutes a lot of power that women hold over men vis-a-vis sex as currency.

[mythago]

but it is a thread to discuss male participation as consumers in the sex industry

As Arwen said elsewhere, then we need to encourage men to seek 'cruelty-free' porn, to treat the women they masturbate over as worthy of respect, and to be aware of how porn affects their own behavior and attitudes.

[Nik]

I don't have the energy to debate about identities and good vs bad porn. But I did want to mention two resources to those for whom this issue really is causing deep pain and is an addiction. Sex Addicts Anonymous exists for those struggling to overcome all kinds of sex addiction, COSA is a partnership group for partners of people in SAA who are struggling to come to terms with their partners' addictions, and both groups have usually have a Healthy Intimate Relationships group where the two groups overlap. Just thought I'd put this out there. While the AA inspired groups do have a spiritual component, they are not specifically Christian.

[Hugo]

Nik, indeed. SAA, SCA, SLAA -- there are a variety of good "S" programs; COSA is a fine resource as well.

But not all men consider themselves addicts; I'm arguing that even the recreational use of porn is also problematic!