"But you're pretty": a pro-feminist musing on why compliments don't help

The discussion sparked by Jill's online experience with her fellow NYU law students continues.  Here's my post, Amanda's, and Lynn's.  Amanda and Lynn both have excellent things to say about the difficult position women find themselves in on the Internet, and in the wider society, when it comes to their appearance.    I liked this bit from Amanda:

Calling feminists ugly is actually shorthand for a longer thought process that goes something like, "Women's most important quality is their looks, so good-looking women have everything they could want. The only reason a woman could be dissatisfied is if she isn't good-looking, and so feminism is the last resort of women in denial that they are failures as women." That argument falls apart if you show that conventionally attractive women also feel like second class citizens, and that being eligible for being a well-regarded sex object doesn't mean that you aren't still being treated just as a sex object.

Nicely put.

When the fellas at NYU called Jill "fat" and "ugly", many folks at Feministe rushed to reassure Jill that she was anything but.  There are several problems with responding to insults with compliments, as zuzu pointed out in the comments:

These guys are obviously assholes, but it bothers me that being called fat and/or hideous provokes such a strong, “But you’re not fat! You’re not ugly!” response. I could just be feeling marginalized by the idea that being fat is the worst thing a woman could be called.

I'm thinking this morning of what a male pro-feminist response to this issue might be.   

Most men are aware, to one degree or another, of how powerfully the women in their lives are affected by messages about beauty.   If we've been raised in this culture, we've grown up with mothers, sisters, cousins, classmates, girlfriends and wives who've suffered from the tremendous pressure to be thin and pretty.  We've witnessed that anxiety from an early age, and many of us have tried -- with limited success at best -- to offer comfort and reassurance to the women around us.  When I was younger, whenever any woman would worry out loud about her weight or her looks, I would rush to compliment her.  I figured dispensing kind compliments was part of my job as a man.

The subtext of this, of course, was that I was being raised to believe that women were emotionally dependent upon my praise and my judgment.  And just as I -- or any man -- had the power to comfort and reassure, I also had the power to hurt and wound.  As a "nice guy" in my youth, I knew that I ought never call a woman "fat" or "ugly", but the fact that I didn't use those epithets didn't mean that I wasn't aware of their potential power.  And I'm convinced it's fundamentally unhealthy for men to have this kind of power over women, even if we don't use that power abusively.

When I first read Jill's original post, I felt the old temptation to do as many did: to offer words of reassurance about her looks.  Compliments, especially in cyberspace, are awfully easy; a quick "Those guys are idiots, you're very attractive" would have been effortless.  But I'm convinced it would have been wrong to write it.  Today, I am very careful with compliments and reassurance about physical appearance.  I save that sort of thing for my marriage. With my female friends, students, and especially with the girls in my youth group to whom I am close, I am quick with compliments about everything but physical appearance.

As a professor and a youth leader, I'm keenly aware of how many young women are desperate for praise and validation about their looks.  And I'm equally aware of how damaging it will be if I provide it.  Even when my "kids" ask for that sort of praise in subtle -- and often not-so-subtle -- ways, I won't make comments about visual appearance.   But ask anyone who's seen me with teens -- I'm a hugger and a complimenter about everything else extraordinaire.  It's easy to praise exteriors; harder to get to know a girl or a boy and find out his or her special gifts and talents that lie beneath the surface.  I'm intensely interested in finding the different intellectual, emotional, athletic, artistic and spiritual gifts that my students and youth group kids possess.  And about those qualities, I'm consistently effusive.

Obviously, this is a good rule for a thirty-eight year-old youth worker to use when dealing with teenagers.  But this "be very careful with physical comments and compliments rule" is applicable in the rest of the world, as well.  Pro-feminist men must recognize that men constantly use compliments to gain access to women, and that that is a fundamentally destructive dynamic.   How many bad pick-up lines start with overzealous praise of a woman's appearance?  Men use these lines because as hackneyed as they are, they know sometimes they work.   By the time they reach college, most men recognize that a great many women are deeply and profoundly hungry for praise, and by offering that praise, guys will be able to gain an opening.  When men praise the beauty of women they barely know, they are employing an old patriarchal strategy that preys upon a serious vulnerability. 

Mind you, I regularly tell my wife she's beautiful.  But she's my wife, and my enthusiastic and sincere praise is not tied to an agenda; I'm not trying to get her into bed or gain some other power over her.   Indeed, I think we all should compliment our lovers and spouses, and in a different way, our sons and daughters.  Praise for physical attributes has its time and place, and all of us -- men and women alike -- need to hear it from time to time.  But for too long, men have recognized women's socially-constructed need for body-centered praise, and they have used that need to their advantage.  So men can play a vital role in transforming culture for the better by being very careful  with the physical compliments towards women they don't know well -- and very generous with praise for women's other attributes.  Let's save the "you're beautiful" remarks for those with whom we've already built a relationship.

I'm not accusing the guys who wrote complimentary words to Jill of having a hidden agenda, though some may have hopefully anticipated her gratitude, something that men tend to expect in return for that sort of praise.  But we need to recognize that when we do offer such compliments to those we barely know, even when we do so with sincerity and without expectation, we are helping to reinforce the destructive anti-feminist notion that women are dependent upon near-constant reassurance from lovers, acquaintances, and strangers alike.   Sometimes, the best thing we can do is check our desire to offer that praise, and choose a different strategy to express our admiration and our solidarity.

Comments

[Ron O.]

Will, the harm comes because women are often complimented so much on their looks and so little on thier character. Even if it is not sexual, or sexual with the best of intentions, focusing on appearance says "This is what I notice & value about you" Hear that too much and you might start to believe it about yourself as well.

A few more good compliments

"That's very interesting..."

"Good observation..."

"That took guts..."

"You are sweet..."

"This was a really nice dinner. Thanks for asking me out."

PS My wife asked me out on our first date & paid. After that we more-or-less traded treating each other.

[Will]

Happy Feminist:

There are certainly a number of areas when it is absolutely inappropriate: boss, prison guard, the person about to frisk you for weapons as you walk into a courthouse or into an airport.

Assuming that I am not a stalker or want anything from you, how are you harmed or demeaned by me saying "You look great in that outfit." as I walk by with my girlfriend.

Should you assume the worst or the best about my intentions?

[Will]

RonO:

I didnt say anything about not complimenting someone about more important attributes. That is why I said that you shouldnt date someone more focused on your looks than your mind.

However, why exclude compliments about appearance totally? Isnt that rather paternalistic and assumes that woman isnt smart enough to know the difference between demeaning her and complimenting her?

I try not to have hidden meanings in what I say.

[Ron O.]

I'm not saying that either. See the comment about the shoes above. And I agree with Happy Feminist & Hugo that it can be appropriate with your intimates.

However, you asked "In my mind, there is absolutely no harm on complimenting a person on how they look, unless I am doing it for some hidden (or not so hidden) agenda." And I say regardless of your agenda, society focuses too much on women's bodies. Appearance-based compliments to strangers and aquaintances, however well intentioned, re-inforce that idea. The cummulative effect is not good for many women.

In general, for me intent does not matter as much as affect.

[Ron O.]

Whoops, make that effect, not affect.

[Will]

RonO:

Your approach sounds very demeaning to women. You are protecting all women because you believe that it might have some detrimental effect on them.

[Ron O.]

Your interpretation sounds like you are intentionally misreading for the sake of argument. I'll repeat my first three sentences:

I like to compliment people where appropriate. I wouldn't compliment people on attributes they inherited, unless they were family or very close friends. Also, they need to be true and sincere.

It's not protecting. It's doing no harm.

[The Happy Feminist]

Will: No one is suggesting that a man should be pilloried for giving an innocuous compliment about a woman's appearance. But if you do so to someone with whom you are not intimate, it may come across as a bit presumptuous, regardless of your intention. That's all.

Why not take the safer course and give some of the compliments that Ron O. suggested. Why is it so important to you to comment on the appearance of women to whom you are not related or intimate?

[alexander]

"Are you trying to say that this hasn't ever happened to you, that no woman's ever taken you out on a date? Never? Not once?"

OK, this is typical, I brought up a legitimate point, and this was immediately used as an excuse to attack me personally. i.e., the implication is that I am a "loser" whom women do not find attractive. Therefore, what I am saying can be ignored or demeaned. At this point I am supposed to stand up and thump my chest and say "Women ask me out all the time." Right? I don't play that game.

Let me repeat my point: if women do not want men to compliment them then fine, we sensitive men will not compliment women. Will that make women happy?

Or will we see women start complaining that men no longer compliment them? Obviously, this is part of 50,000 years of male neglect of women.

Perhaps we will see new feminist inspired laws requiring men to compliment women or face lawsuits for "date neglect"?

[Will]

Happy Feminist:

Who is being presumptuous? The person (male or female) making the compliment? Or the person receiving the compliment who presumes a hidden agenda?

I guess it just strikes me as treating women like children. Don't get me wrong. I do not walk around telling women "Hey! You are really WEARING that skirt!!". But, I suspect that you wouldnt think twice about complimenting me about my tie if you saw me in court. Does that mean that you do not respect me or that you want to jump me in a side conference room?

I've had plenty of women that I do not know compliment me on a tie or a coat. Do they not respect me? Did they want to have sex with me? How could I have missed that??!!?!?

I think that this is a very interesting topic. I appreciate your perspective.

[mythago]

if women do not want men to compliment them

Gosh, where did you get that idea? I certainly want my (male) boss to tell me "Hey, great job on that opposition you wrote." I don't recall that anyone here has suggested a woman's husband must never, ever tell her he finds her beautiful. (Hugo said just the opposite, actually.)

I am losing my ability to remember the Latin names of the fallacies, but you're taking the subject of discussion--men complimenting women's physical appearance as though it were their most importantm and perhaps only worthwhile, feature--and reducing it to a ridiculous and simplistic argument: if you don't like an acquaintance telling you that you have pretty eyes, you must NEVER want ANY man to say anything nice about you EVER, you uptight fembot!

But, I suspect that you wouldnt think twice about complimenting me about my tie if you saw me in court.

1) Do you compliment male colleagues' ties?

2) A tie is not generally a piece of clothing that reflects the physical features of its wearer. "Nice tie, Bob" is not analogous to "Did you lose weight? You look fabulous!"

If you don't believe me, try telling opposing counsel in court that you think his new pinstripe slacks really flatter him.

[The Happy Feminist]

Thanks Will! I've been known to compliment people's ties in court (assuming they wear nice ties!) But I wouldn't say, "You have beautiful eyes," or "You look great in that suit," because that crosses the line from praising a person's taste to praising his or her physical attributes.

It can seem presumptuous because -- regardless of your intention -- it plays into the notion that the man has a right to assess my looks and to find them either wanting or not. It just plays into too many problems that women face in our culture, as Hugo has pointed out.

I should point out that in my youth, I got a lot of appearance-based compliments, and I didn't run around hmmphing to myself in disgust. But I was honestly a bit relieved when I grew older and got married because it was just draining to have so much focus -- even positive focus -- on my appearance. I vastly preferred compliments on my ideas or jokes or other attributes.

[The Happy Feminist]

Mythago, why didn't I say that? (Bangs head against desk)

[will]

mythago:

I compliment people on their ties all the time. I've also told many people that their suit looked great too.

"reflects the physical features of its wearer."

What is my message to you if I tell you that your outfit looks great? Or that you look great today? Am I hitting on you? Am I telling you that you have a great butt that I would like to grab?

[will]

"I vastly preferred compliments on my ideas or jokes or other attributes."

If you learned to tell better jokes, I would compliment you on those instead! (I kid!)

I agree with you completely.

I just believe that we should be careful about assuming insult or intention when well meaning people say things.

[The Happy Feminist]

Gotta run-- off to hubby's office holiday party (postponed from last month due to bad weather). Sorry I can't stick around!

[ca]

I find this amusing, because while I was never particularly sensitive about my looks, and never actually noticed whether people were complimenting me on them or not, I have always been extremely sensitive about my intelligence. Saying, "That was a brilliant thought!" or "But you're smart!" was a WAY better pickup line for me than "You look really nice!"

The other thing is that the vast majority of the "You look great today" lines I've gotten have come from other females. I have always been surrounded by physicists/mathematicians/engineers who don't usually notice... much of anything. On the other hand, for this demographic, actually wearing *nice* clothes is weird enough that it will garner comment, usually in a tone of great surprise and/or condolences, no matter what sex is afflicted with the fancy dress.

[mythago]

What is my message to you if I tell you that your outfit looks great?

Exactly the point. If I don't know you well, there IS no way for me to know if you just like my tailor, or if you are hitting on me--and that's because of the history and social norms by which men are supposed to compliment women's appearance, both because a) that's an acceptable way to hit on them and b) women's appearance is their most important feature, and one open to judging and commentary.

For example, yesterday I stopped by the office while I was all suited up from having gone to a deposition. A senior attorney passing by mentioned that I looked very professional. This is the kind of compliment he would make to a junior attorney of either sex--and, knowing this attorney, I wouldn't dream that he was hitting on me.

A comment from a stranger, or one that had to do with attractiveness, would be very different.

[will]

mythago:

I am opposing counsel in a case with you. We have had cases against each other before. We are acquantances. As we are alone in the conference room before a deposition, I saw "Great suit!" You are offended? Have I demeaned you? Do you think I am trying to get into your pants?

Can you not tell me that you like my suit without wanting to jump me right on the conference table? Must every comment be evaluated for possible sexual content? Personally, I do not think that way.

[mythago]

Actually, will, I would figure you were trying to soften me up so you could pull something over on me in court. ;)

[will]

Mythago:

excellent answer. Spoken like a true lawyer.

[zuzu]

What is my message to you if I tell you that your outfit looks great? Or that you look great today? Am I hitting on you? Am I telling you that you have a great butt that I would like to grab?

Let me get you to approach this from another perspective:

Years ago, my sister worked with a woman who was 400 pounds if she was an ounce, but was always beautifully dressed. This woman heard my sister, a tall and big girl, bemoaning the size on the tag in her clothes, one day in the bathroom. She told my sister something that inverts your question: "I can find something that has the 'right' size, and people will say, 'Look at that fat lady in the tight skirt.' Or I could wear something that fits me and looks good, and people will say, 'That's a beautiful skirt.'"

Make no mistake, this woman knew that she was as large as she was and that most people were not looking at her with desire. But if you make the effort to dress well, and someone compliments you on your effort, that feels like a validation of your efforts.

Another perspective: I've said that I am fat and conventionally pretty. I've been stopped by random strangers who've told me that I'm pretty/beautiful enough to have finally absorbed that (and to wonder what kind of attention I'd get if I were thin with the same face and even the half-assed fashion sense).

But I don't depend on the opinions of random strangers or even men I date to validate that, so it was a bit of shock this summer to be with a man who, in the midst of things, asked me, "Do I make you feel beautiful?"

I just froze, because I didn't know what to say. Was this guy suggesting that because he was, um, having relations with me that he was conferring beauty and therefore status on me? I didn't need *him* to tell me that, since I already knew it (even if it had taken me years to internalize it).

(I never saw him again.)

[Lynn Gazis-Sax]

Should you assume the worst or the best about my intentions?

Well, I can't exactly see that it's to my advantage to assume that no one ever thinks about having sex with me. I've tried working from that assumption, and it didn't take me anywhere good.

Not that I assume everyone's looking to immediately jump my bones, either.

In general, how welcome compliments about appearance are depends on a whole lot of factors: how well we know each other, how intimate a sort of compliment it is, whether the setting is professional or social, what the person's other body language is, etc.

[sophonisba]

OK, this is typical, I brought up a legitimate point, and this was immediately used as an excuse to attack me personally. i.e., the implication is that I am a "loser" whom women do not find attractive.

No no, you misunderstand. The implication is that if you are not physically attractive enough to attract others to do the work of asking you out - and if you're not, it's certainly no fault of yours; nobody gets to decide how sexy they are - you're just going to have to bite the bullet and do the asking yourself.

You know, like a woman would.

Let me repeat my point: if women do not want men to compliment them then fine, we sensitive men will not compliment women. Will that make women happy?

Yes.

[will]

"In general, how welcome compliments about appearance are depends on a whole lot of factors: how well we know each other, how intimate a sort of compliment it is, whether the setting is professional or social, what the person's other body language is, etc."

Lynn:

I agree with you completely.

zuzu:

I do not understand what you are trying to say.