"But you're pretty": a pro-feminist musing on why compliments don't help

The discussion sparked by Jill's online experience with her fellow NYU law students continues.  Here's my post, Amanda's, and Lynn's.  Amanda and Lynn both have excellent things to say about the difficult position women find themselves in on the Internet, and in the wider society, when it comes to their appearance.    I liked this bit from Amanda:

Calling feminists ugly is actually shorthand for a longer thought process that goes something like, "Women's most important quality is their looks, so good-looking women have everything they could want. The only reason a woman could be dissatisfied is if she isn't good-looking, and so feminism is the last resort of women in denial that they are failures as women." That argument falls apart if you show that conventionally attractive women also feel like second class citizens, and that being eligible for being a well-regarded sex object doesn't mean that you aren't still being treated just as a sex object.

Nicely put.

When the fellas at NYU called Jill "fat" and "ugly", many folks at Feministe rushed to reassure Jill that she was anything but.  There are several problems with responding to insults with compliments, as zuzu pointed out in the comments:

These guys are obviously assholes, but it bothers me that being called fat and/or hideous provokes such a strong, “But you’re not fat! You’re not ugly!” response. I could just be feeling marginalized by the idea that being fat is the worst thing a woman could be called.

I'm thinking this morning of what a male pro-feminist response to this issue might be.   

Most men are aware, to one degree or another, of how powerfully the women in their lives are affected by messages about beauty.   If we've been raised in this culture, we've grown up with mothers, sisters, cousins, classmates, girlfriends and wives who've suffered from the tremendous pressure to be thin and pretty.  We've witnessed that anxiety from an early age, and many of us have tried -- with limited success at best -- to offer comfort and reassurance to the women around us.  When I was younger, whenever any woman would worry out loud about her weight or her looks, I would rush to compliment her.  I figured dispensing kind compliments was part of my job as a man.

The subtext of this, of course, was that I was being raised to believe that women were emotionally dependent upon my praise and my judgment.  And just as I -- or any man -- had the power to comfort and reassure, I also had the power to hurt and wound.  As a "nice guy" in my youth, I knew that I ought never call a woman "fat" or "ugly", but the fact that I didn't use those epithets didn't mean that I wasn't aware of their potential power.  And I'm convinced it's fundamentally unhealthy for men to have this kind of power over women, even if we don't use that power abusively.

When I first read Jill's original post, I felt the old temptation to do as many did: to offer words of reassurance about her looks.  Compliments, especially in cyberspace, are awfully easy; a quick "Those guys are idiots, you're very attractive" would have been effortless.  But I'm convinced it would have been wrong to write it.  Today, I am very careful with compliments and reassurance about physical appearance.  I save that sort of thing for my marriage. With my female friends, students, and especially with the girls in my youth group to whom I am close, I am quick with compliments about everything but physical appearance.

As a professor and a youth leader, I'm keenly aware of how many young women are desperate for praise and validation about their looks.  And I'm equally aware of how damaging it will be if I provide it.  Even when my "kids" ask for that sort of praise in subtle -- and often not-so-subtle -- ways, I won't make comments about visual appearance.   But ask anyone who's seen me with teens -- I'm a hugger and a complimenter about everything else extraordinaire.  It's easy to praise exteriors; harder to get to know a girl or a boy and find out his or her special gifts and talents that lie beneath the surface.  I'm intensely interested in finding the different intellectual, emotional, athletic, artistic and spiritual gifts that my students and youth group kids possess.  And about those qualities, I'm consistently effusive.

Obviously, this is a good rule for a thirty-eight year-old youth worker to use when dealing with teenagers.  But this "be very careful with physical comments and compliments rule" is applicable in the rest of the world, as well.  Pro-feminist men must recognize that men constantly use compliments to gain access to women, and that that is a fundamentally destructive dynamic.   How many bad pick-up lines start with overzealous praise of a woman's appearance?  Men use these lines because as hackneyed as they are, they know sometimes they work.   By the time they reach college, most men recognize that a great many women are deeply and profoundly hungry for praise, and by offering that praise, guys will be able to gain an opening.  When men praise the beauty of women they barely know, they are employing an old patriarchal strategy that preys upon a serious vulnerability. 

Mind you, I regularly tell my wife she's beautiful.  But she's my wife, and my enthusiastic and sincere praise is not tied to an agenda; I'm not trying to get her into bed or gain some other power over her.   Indeed, I think we all should compliment our lovers and spouses, and in a different way, our sons and daughters.  Praise for physical attributes has its time and place, and all of us -- men and women alike -- need to hear it from time to time.  But for too long, men have recognized women's socially-constructed need for body-centered praise, and they have used that need to their advantage.  So men can play a vital role in transforming culture for the better by being very careful  with the physical compliments towards women they don't know well -- and very generous with praise for women's other attributes.  Let's save the "you're beautiful" remarks for those with whom we've already built a relationship.

I'm not accusing the guys who wrote complimentary words to Jill of having a hidden agenda, though some may have hopefully anticipated her gratitude, something that men tend to expect in return for that sort of praise.  But we need to recognize that when we do offer such compliments to those we barely know, even when we do so with sincerity and without expectation, we are helping to reinforce the destructive anti-feminist notion that women are dependent upon near-constant reassurance from lovers, acquaintances, and strangers alike.   Sometimes, the best thing we can do is check our desire to offer that praise, and choose a different strategy to express our admiration and our solidarity.

Comments

[Susanna]

Well said. As a woman, I understand the enervating power of judgements on my physical appearance. Also, I realize that people can dispense compliments in an indiscriminate manner. Nevertheless, I want to clarify (and this might be the case for others who have misguidedly defended Jill by reassuring her of her beauty) that I never, ever posted a comment at Feministe, even though I am a regular reader. After months of reading Jill's posts and seeing her pictures and learning about her life, the gratuitous violence she received at xoxo really upset me. I would have never said to her that she's gorgeous unless I thought so (it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction). Anyway, after reading more stuff that the xoxo board that day, I came to the conclusion that responding in the way I did is not the best way to address a ridiculous ad hominem.

BTW, your chinchilla is jaw-dropping, sooper doopper adorable.

[Hugo]

Susanna, the wonderful thing about chinchillas is that they are immune to socially constructed pressures to be beautiful or thin. They do take compliments very well, thank you.

I wanted to be careful not to criticize any of the "complimenters" at Feministe. My post also leaves the impression that only men were complimenting Jill, which obviously wasn't the case.

[The Happy Feminist]

It's always rubbed me the wrong way when a man (besides my father or a significant other) has complimented my looks. It always strikes me as a bit presumptuous, and I think Hugo's post goes a long way toward explaining why.

I don't think Hugo's rule is some new-fangled notion invented feminists either. I think Emily Post and Miss Manners would agree that men are not supposed to compliment that beauty or physique of women not related to them.

[The Happy Feminist]

Oh, and in lieu of what Hugo just said, I didn't mean to imply that people who told Jill that she is pretty in the aftermath of the nasty comments about her were being presumptuous. In the context of that situation, I thought it was a sweet gesture (because Jill herself brought up the issue of what others had said about her appearance), although in retrospect it seems clear that those compliments perhaps missed the point.

[Kristjan Wager]

"I think Emily Post and Miss Manners would agree that men are not supposed to compliment that beauty or physique of women not related to them."

I'm not too sure of that - isn't it considered quite proper to compliment men with the beauty of their wives?

I compliment friends on their looks, and on their clothes, no matter their gender, but I would never dream of doing so to a stranger (unless there are other more obvious motives behind the compliments).

[The Happy Feminist]

Hmmmm . . . I have to admit that I can't cite chapter in verse from the etiquette books. But I have a feeling that men complimenting other men on their wives looks is not strictly "correct."

Of course, rules are made to be broken. I think a close pal saying, "hey, your new S.O. is good looking" is pretty normal human behavior.

[Ron O.]

I like to compliment people where appropriate. I wouldn't compliment people on attributes they inherited, unless they were family or very close friends. Also, they need to be true and sincere. I can't fake a compliment. But if you listen and observe, you can almost always find something complimentary about a person.

10 years ago, when I'd be sitting in a bar talking to a woman I fancied, I might tell her I something like "Great shoes. They really go with your clothes." But I wouldn't tell her she has beautiful eyes.

[Brian]

Great post. It has taken me a long time to learn this. It's always been natural for me to judge women on their appearance in a manner that was not necessary and could have been replaced with a compliment or sincerity that reinforced something more healthy.

When my now ex-wife and I were separating a few years ago, her mother yelled at me, telling me what I was losing out on when her daughter cheated on me. She said, "look at how beautiful she is, you can't blame other men for wanting to give her attention". Well, yes and no. She is physically attractive, I suppose, but only skin deep, at best. And I have since met and married a woman who is more beautiful in many ways over my ex, although she is a woman I would not have noticed when I met my ex.

I believe that my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world, and want to be with her regardless of any superficial appearances that may change over time. But it has taken me some time to mature to this level, and the superficial pressures of our society work against more constructive methods of praising the other sex.

[Russell]

There are several levels to this issue:

1)I work with batterers and I remember one telling me that he had a good pick-up line involving complimenting a woman's looks. Most of the time, he would get ignored, or told to go away, but sometimes, 1 out of 10 (he said), would respond and he would end up having sex with her. In his mind, it was a strategy that worked.

2)I think that most men who are not "predators" like the guy above, extrapolate from their intimate experiences with women. I dated women when I was in my early 20's who would often demean their looks with the hope/expectation that I would compliment them. I used to assume that most women were looking for a compliment on their physical looks, especially if they or someone else demeaned their looks.

3) So, as a pro-feminist man, you need to realize that there are men like the guy above (they set the tone for how men are often perceived) and that even though you may not have the same intention, it is important to be continually looking at your use of power - regardless of your intentions.

I hope this is clear....

[Hugo]

From "Miss Manners Guide for the Turn of the Millenium", page 113:

"Strangers have no business complimenting on one's looks one way or the other. A truly harmless stranger -- say an older lady who says, "My you're a pretty thing", before she thinks about it -- may be acknowledged with a slight bow of the head and a distant smile. A strange man who makes such a comment should be pointedly ignored."

That's all she has on the subject.

Nothing about complimenting friends' wives to their faces. That smacks more of the courtly love tradition than of any recent period in American manners.

[The Happy Feminist]

Well at least takes care of the arguments street harassers use to defend themselves ("What's the problem? I was just complimenting a pretty lady!")

I love Miss Manners, although I would bet that most street harassers aren't sensitive enough to social nuances to be too wounded by being "pointedly ignored."

[Richard Bennett]

Why is it destructive for men to "gain access to women?" If they're both willing adults, it seems pretty damn constructive to me.

[barb]

Wow, I know I always say this, but this one really is a great post, Hugo. I'm handing it over to GIL to read too.

[alexander]

Well, if women do not want men to compliment them, we can stop complimenting them. But then will we hear a spate of complaints from women that "men don't notice us"?

Pro-feminist men must recognize that men constantly use compliments to gain access to women, and that that is a fundamentally destructive dynamic.

Obviously, men have no clue. So why don't women show us how it is done. Let us see women take the initiative, approach men, start a conversation (without any of those destructive compliments), ask the guy for his phone number, then call him up later and ask him out.

And don't forget, she will have to pick him up and pay for the date!

[alexander]

Well, if women do not want men to compliment them, we can stop complimenting them. But then will we hear a spate of complaints from women that "men don't notice us"?

Pro-feminist men must recognize that men constantly use compliments to gain access to women, and that that is a fundamentally destructive dynamic.

Obviously, men have no clue. So why don't women show us how it is done. Let us see women take the initiative, approach men, start a conversation (without any of those destructive compliments), ask the guy for his phone number, then call him up later and ask him out.

And don't forget, she will have to pick him up and pay for the date!

[alexander]

HUGO: I ONLY POSTED ONCE BUT FOR SOME REASON THE PREVIEW FUNCTION POSTED IT TWICE!

[sophonisba]

So why don't women show us how it is done. Let us see women take the initiative, approach men, start a conversation (without any of those destructive compliments), ask the guy for his phone number, then call him up later and ask him out.

And don't forget, she will have to pick him up and pay for the date!

Are you trying to say that this hasn't ever happened to you, that no woman's ever taken you out on a date? Never? Not once?

Oh, dear.

Perhaps it's different where you live, but here in the US, women feel quite free to ask men out, buy them nice things, take them to dinner, and seduce them. We do it all the time. Of course, as hard as it is taking the initiative, being passively attractive is hard work, too. But you've found that out already.

[The Happy Feminist]

I love it when men imply that we're so LUCKY that they're doing all the "heavy lifting" in initiating relationships (asking someone out, paying, picking up your date, etc.). But frankly, I would just as soon do the initiating and I have done so(in my single days). And I never felt the need to say, "Hey, good lookin', how about dinner?" A simple, "Can I take you out to dinner on Saturday?" will suffice.

The problem is that the same men who feel they have to initiate the relationship often can't take "no" for an answer. They feel that they have to somehow MAKE her want to go out with them - by lavish compliments, too much persistence, or what have you. I think that feeling is due to unfortunate cultural beliefs in our society.

My advice to Alexander is to abandon the belief that there is some sort of magic key to making a particular woman to like you. Just be polite and respectful and straightforward and accept whatever happens. You may get a lot of women who simply don't want to go out with you, but you will eventually meet the one who will-- and for the right reasons.

[The Happy Feminist]

More dating advice for Alexander: One big way to become much more attractive in a woman's eyes is to show an interest in her beyond her appearance. If you think she's politically minded, ask her opinion on the death penalty. If she belongs to a book club, ask her about the books they've been reading. Ask her where she grew up and what that was like. Ask her what kind of music she likes. If you show that level of interest in her thoughts and interests, and then you ask her out on a date, she will simply infer that you find her pretty-- and she's much more likely to say yes to the date. I have always found it tough to say "no" to a date with someone who was obviously so interested in what I have to say.

But a guy who just says things like, "Boy, you're really pretty" comes off as somewhat presumptuous and possibly manipulative. It was amazing to me how many guys I met during my single years who would tell me how beautiful I was, talk endlessly about themselves to try to impress me, and never once express any interest in anything I thought.

[zuzu]

Just closing the tag here.

[zuzu]

I wanted to be careful not to criticize any of the "complimenters" at Feministe.

I did, too, when I made the comment, though reading it now, it seems incomplete. I didn't really get at what was bothering me about the whole thing, but Lauren linked to a post by Hissycat that captured it for me: by rushing to compliment and reassure Jill, the commenters were not addressing the real issue, which is that these guys feel some entitlement to pass judgment on women's worth by ranking their looks, and getting drawn into defending the looks rather than going after the xoxo idiots for their presumption just buys into their valuation system.

And now that I look at my comment again, I see that I did that, too, to some extent: if I feel marginalized, it's because I've internalized the whole valuation of looks that decrees that I'm lesser or invisible because I'm fat. At the same time, I know that because I am also conventionally pretty, I rise a notch or two -- but it really irks me that I care.

[Catty]

This is an interesting post, and I've been masticating over it for some time.

I think zuzu makes a great point, and I think Hugo makes a great point, too. I don't feel that Hugo is telling men *not* to compliment women... but to be aware of the social messages they're reinforcing by certain compliments. My grasp (sorry, I'm not getting much sleep) is that by rushing to defend women that have been berated over looks, one is also reinforcing the same social message of a woman's most important value being her appearance.

Personally, I've never minded compliments from people as long as it was in passing, polite and not made with any intentions. Please correct me if I'm being dumb, but what about complimenting people on their style? I've always found it nice when men or women have complimented me on an article of clothing- whether it's "cool t-shirt" or "nice dress." I've always taken that as a compliment of my taste rather than a compliment about my inherited looks. On the other hand, I do also really appreciate positive comments on things completely non-appearance related.

Alexander,

I have actually asked a lot of guys out on a date, picked some of them up, and paid for some dinners. When i go out on a date with men, I usually insist on paying my own way.

"But then will we hear a spate of complaints from women that "men don't notice us"?"

I think you're missing the whole point. Hugo isn't saying that you can't compliment a woman- he's saying try complimenting her on something other than her appearance for a change.

[Hugo]

Catty, that's an accurate interpretation of what I was trying to convey.

Good mastication.

[Will]

"It was amazing to me how many guys I met during my single years who would tell me how beautiful I was, talk endlessly about themselves to try to impress me, and never once express any interest in anything I thought."

This is a very good point. Someone who is focused on your looks and not who you are is not a good person to date.

However, I do not see anything wrong with a compliment. The problem is what is behind the compliment.

In my mind, there is absolutely no harm on complimenting a person on how they look, unless I am doing it for some hidden (or not so hidden) agenda. I can tell someone that they look great without meaning "I'd like to get into your pants" or "Your mind means nothing to me." When you assume that I only mean something sexual, then you are projecting your thoughts onto my comment.

Sometimes, we look for hidden meaning when there is none.

Now, if I were to say to you "You have fabulous breasts!" or "What a great butt!", then I can understand taking insult.

[The Happy Feminist]

Well, a lot of it is about context. I don't want to imply that I would be insulted by someone saying, "You have nice eyes," or "You're very pretty," but it might rub me the wrong way if I haven't reached the right level of intimacy with that person.

I don't want to play into the stereotype that feminists hate pleasure and attraction and beauty and flirtation. Personally, I love all of those things. But I think on a pure manners level, it's always safer to refrain from compliments about a person's physical attributes unless you're somewhat intimate with that person.