Flame wars, and crossing a line

Sometimes it's difficult to keep track of the various battles in the blog world.

One intriguing fray began earlier this week, when Michelle Malkin weighed in on the proposed memorial to those who went down on Flight 93 during the September 11 attacks.  Complaining that the design is insufficiently martial, Malkin fumes:

The soft-and-fuzzy memorial design of "Crescent of Embrace" still does injustice to the steely courage of Flight 93's passengers and crew. It evokes the defeatism embodied by those behind a similar move to turn the 9/11 memorial at Ground Zero in New York City into a pacifist guilt complex.

This is no way to fight a war. Or to remember those who have died fighting it.

A proper war memorial stirs to anger and action.

Jill at Feministe responded:

I cry whenever I go to the Vietnam Veteran’s memorial in DC. I don’t feel “stirred to action,” although admittedly I walk away feeling angry at our government over involving us in another unnecessary war. I don’t feel like picking up a gun after visiting the WWII memorial, or the Holocaust museum, or the Korean War memorial. If I remember them correctly, all those memorials manage to focus on bravery and courage, while still allowing space for grief, contemplation and hope for peace.

And they were actually war memorials. Do I need to say it again? The innocent passengers on Flight 93 didn’t die fighting in a war. This is not a war memorial. I agree that it’s important to immortalize the heroics of the people on that flight. But it’s completely innappropriate to turn a memorial into a politicized “let’s kick some ass, yay war!” campaign. And for the record, I think that the chosen design is quite beautiful.

My sentiments exactly.  My faith informs me that the proper response to colossal tragedy is grief, not anger.  Forgiveness, repentance and forbearance are far higher virtues than rage and retaliation.  But this is not a post about the memorial; rather, it's about how gender and even racial issues get mixed up quickly -- and nastily -- with war. 

A blogger named Shannon Elizabeth then called Jill an "uninformed bimbo" in the comments at Feministe; that charmingly sophisticated slur was then picked up by Protein Wisdom blog.  There, a right-wing blogger named Andrea Harris wrote:

Oh dear—you have attacked the delicate, sensitive female feminists at Feministe. Expect a puff-alanche of snippy comments from Proud Singlemom Womyn™ demanding Culturally Diverse communities in which they can safely raise their quadriracial children in a non-violent, non-misogynistic, secular atmosphere where they won’t have to hear about icky male phallic things like War!, Jesus, and rednecks in pickup trucks.

Normally, I don't get involved in these unpleasant flame wars.  Obviously, in my theological training and my years of walking with Him, I missed the bit where Jesus is a pro-war "icky male phallic thing", but that sort of inanity doesn't deserve a response. Where Andrea crossed a dangerous line is with the subject of race -- and other bloggers' children.

Lauren, who along with Jill runs Feministe, has a biracial son.  Though to be sure, Lauren has posted on "whiteness" before,  she rarely discusses race issues at Feministe.  Thus Lauren was furious, and justifiably so, when Harris dragged racial politics (with the ridiculous "quadriracial" remark) into the discussion of feminism and war memorials.  But Harris' attack seemed utterly inappropriate, and I wanted to use some space on my blog to repudiate publicly the notion that other bloggers' kids are ever, ever fair game.  Lauren and Jill run one of my favorite feminist-themed blogs on the 'net, and if it is partisan to defend those whom one deeply admires, so be it.

I've got another post coming up on race soon.

Comments

[IT]

(warbles song)"One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same..."

icky male phallic things like War!, Jesus, and rednecks in pickup trucks.

What this does is tell you that the self-appoined right-winger disapproves of racially mixed children, single mothers, cultural diversity AND secularism. All of which, I'm sure, she considers Anti American. And we wonder why we are so polarized....

[barb]

Right on, Hugo. If they can't argue the facts, what's the point?

[Lauren]

Pssst. Shannon Elizabeth is an actress. It's Jeff's alter-ego that he uses to call women bimbos and get away with it.

[Hugo]

"Pssst. Shannon Elizabeth is an actress. It's Jeff's alter-ego that he uses to call women bimbos and get away with it."

I just looked up Shannon Elizabeth on the internet. The things one can get through life not knowing about... Anyhow, I stand corrected, or at least, enlightened. My annoyance is no less, of course.

[Sharon]

Hugo,

Thank you for your thoughtful post on the downright abusive comments towards others in blogs...and I'm sorry...but, children are off-limits. Cowards. I'm fairly new to the blog scene (mostly due to lack of time) but, I'm glad that you came forward and defended your friends. I'm also a new reader of Feministe which I enjoy quite a bit. I've got to run but, I wanted to take the time to thank you for speaking up.

[Stephanie]

The quadriracial comment really bugged me. I don't even know what the point was ... to mock people of multiple ethnicities? Is that funny to some people? I don't get it.

I'll agree whole-heartedly with the "children are off-limits" comment. As should be the case with spouses and significant others in my opinion.

Hugo, I think it was probably wise to protect your wife's identity given that some people on the blogosphere have no shame and resort to this kind of crap, although I realize that hasn't really prevented anyone from making inappopriate comments about her ... ugh, what is wrong with people?. God this kind of stuff just pisses me off.

[djw]

Well, I'll never get the 20 minutes of my life back I spent reading that thread.

[djw]

I kept reading to see if the site owner or anyone else on their side, so to speak, bothered to take Harris to task for her crack. I'm not sure why I bothered.

[Nathan]

I guess my children are "bi-racial". I certainly don't think of them that way; they are just my children.

And yet, I can understand what Ms. Harris is getting at: it gets frightfully annoying when people take harmless little value-neutral facts about themselves and their lives and decide to "be proud" about them. Like there's something noble about being brave enough to have a bi-racial child...Ms. Harris just exaggerated it with "quadriracial". You know, exaggeration for effect?

Now, I know nothing about Lauren, or Hugo, or anyone involved, so I don't know if Ms. Harris' characterization was correct. She certainly describes some people I've encountered before...but the serious reaction to such an obviously non-literal statement pretty much clarifies the situation, I think. It must be painful to go through life so sensitive.

[Xrlq]

Far be it from me to defend Andrea Harris, but is there any reason to assume she knew Jill even had children, let alone their racial makeup? If not, it was still a rude and inappropriate comment, of course, but on a much lower level.

[Lynn Gazis-Sax]

Jill doesn't have children; Lauren has a child. And evidently she and Andrea Harris had a recent exchange which made it clear that Andrea would have known about the child.

[Nick Kiddle]

About being "proud", there's one thing that strikes me. There are some facts that ought to be value-neutral but aren't, and if you don't make a decision to go the route of pride, large swathes of society will shove you, by default, down the route of shame. I think this is why there's so much emphasis on gay pride, for instance, and I'm certain it's what makes it better to teach lefty kids they're special and slightly different than to try to brush it aside as no big deal. (I cannot speak from experience on gay pride, but on lefty pride I can.)

[La Lubu]

That, and while Lauren often mentions her son, she rarely mentions her son's ethnic background. It was telling to me that Andrea picked up on that and amplified it, in an attempt to smear Lauren.

Nathan, I have yet to encounter any white parents who try to set themselves up as "brave" or "special" for having interracial children in real life, but I have seen this attitude on the 'net. Nevertheless, I think you're mischaracterizing this as being an issue of Lauren being painfully "sensitive". A visit to her blog ought to remove any inkling of that illusion. She's frequently linked and blogrolled at many people's sites; people who have social/policial views that run the whole gamut. That ought to speak to her open-mindedness and willingness to engage in dialogue---real dialogue, not just flaming.

[Nathan]

La Lubu,
From what I've seen already: no. But everyone has their own opinion.

[NYMOM]

"It must be painful to go through life so sensitive."

It's not overly sensitive to not want people commenting about personal issues. Just because someone has a blog does not mean they have given others permission to invade every aspect of their personal life just because they can.

I have experienced this myself and I know people will not want to hear this but it's a sign of aggression when people invade your personal 'space' inappropriately like this and sadly I have found it mostly done by MRAs.

Thus, I have to say it's clearly a sign of male aggression.

Like lions urinating on bushes to establish their terrorities; so too these attempts to attack people who have blogs they disagree with comes from a similar wellspring...

They'll have to get over this if the internet is going to be a successful place where EVERYONE can come to interact and recreate...without worrying that they are going to be threatened or harrassed at their home or work by a small group of miscreants...

I will end this now knowing how our host likes to keep things civil here...but remember many of his guests are NOT of the same calibre obviously and create much mischief OFF this site against people they meet on it...

So not being aware of this could create an uneven playing field for the unwary or principled...

[Nathan]

Two points:

1) As Churchill once said, an insult is like a drink; it must be accepted to affect you.

2) There was a guy who went to see a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist showed him a vertical line and asked what he saw. The guy said, "A sexy woman standing up." The psychiatrist showed him a line bent in a right angle and asked what he saw. The guy said, "A sexy woman sitting down." The psychiatrist showed him a horizontal line and asked what he saw. The guy said, "A sexy woman lying down." The psychiatrist said, "You are obviously overly obsessed with sex." The man replied, "Me? You're the one showing all the sexy pictures!"

I guess I'm just racistly urinating on bushes.

[Lauren]

Hi, Nathan.

As far as dragging out my son's ethnicity: up until this week I have only mentioned it three times on my blog. Is it something I am proud of? I don't think "proud" is the word. I usually don't consider it at all., though my son's racial and ethnic heritage is indeed something I think of when I witness racism, and that was the initial reason it got trotted out in the first place. We were discussing whether or not racism still exists in modern America. Too many people believe it died with Jim Crow.

So, is that pride? It is context.

Andrea was very clearly mocking me and my son after a previous discussion on Ilyka Damen's blog that then led to the linking of those three posts, on Ilyka's blog, that mention my son's ethnicity (an aside to otherwise very long and detailed posts -- certainly not the focal point at all). Something about these posts needled her. Her references are very clear if you have the whole story and the posts at hand. In fact, it's pretty obvious she is referencing this post, one of the three linked at Ilyka's, with her callous statement.

Isn't it convenient that all this info isn't readily apparent to an uninformed onlooker, making me look like some shrill harpy when she can sit back and claim ignorance?

I'm not invested in defending myself any longer, but again, when you drag someone's child into a conversation to prove a point or to mock a parent, you have crossed a line. Children are not missles to be launched in some stupid argument on a blog. Defending a child is what good parents do. I'm sure we can agree on that.

Where I come from we call that good parenting.

[Nathan]

Lauren,
Are you sure she actually insulted your child?
I mean, what are the four races of your child? I thought it was just two...?
Aside from the fact that we are polar opposites in how we understand life, society, etc, we aren't going to agree, but I'll respond as best I can.
Here's my overall thought: if your kids are reading the blog and offended by the statement, you might have a point. But if they (he? she? doesn't matter) aren't reading it, you aren't defending them, you are defending yourself, and your pride, and your opinion of your child.
As far as good parenting: My overall goal as a parent is to teach/help my children go from near-complete dependence to healthy, happy independence as smoothly and rapidly, and with as little damage, as possible. A big element of that is "don't sweat the small stuff". Regarding race, it just doesn't come up. My understanding is that everyone wants the same things: love/respect and security/comfort. Different people have different ways of trying to get that. Men and women have different methods. Different cultures express that desire differently and teach different metrics for success. But we all want the same things, and skin color and body/face features are an illusion that tell you nothing about the heart.
So you see yourself as defending your child; I can't argue with your impulse. However, I would not want to teach my children to be bothered by something I considered smaller than me, or them. A physical attack that can permanently harm or damage them is different, but a sarcastic phrase that isn't factual on the face of it??? They're going to have to endure worse by the 6th grade...and puberty will be still far worse than that. How can I prepare them for teasing from their peers if I can't ignore my detractors?

...aside from all that, like I said, I've met people that leave the same impression Andrea was describing. Perhaps it was wrong of her to lump you in that stereotype, I don't know because I haven't met you. But I still don't see that your child was attacked.

Then again, I'm a man, so I suppose my opinion doesn't count. Or is overly aggressive. Or my lack of understanding is attacking "the vag" or something. Dunno, I'm just me.

I could go on, but I've probably been unpolitic enough for one day.

[Lynn Gazis-Sax]

I actually had someone insult my half-African nephews and nieces in the comments of my blog. And it was definitely an insult; I had said that it was sad that people would judge them on the color of their skin, and this person said it was sadder that they were born in the first place. I deleted the comment. I don't think I'd be a better person for not being angry at it. I don't usually sweat the small stuff, but there are some things besides physical attacks that are worth being angry at.

[NYMOM]

"1) As Churchill once said, an insult is like a drink; it must be accepted to affect you."

NYMOM said: But what about threats?

"Andrea was very clearly mocking me and my son after a previous discussion on Ilyka Damen's blog that then led to the linking of those three posts, on Ilyka's blog, that mention my son's ethnicity (an aside to otherwise very long and detailed posts -- certainly not the focal point at all)."

NYMOM said: Exactly. This Andrea was mocking you with the comments and everybody else who has bi-racial relatives or friends or who is just concerned about the issue of people of different races getting along.

These are important issues in our society not to be made fun of...

"Are you sure she actually insulted your child?
I mean, what are the four races of your child? I thought it was just two...?"

NYMOM said: AND she's getting a lot of help now from people who are pretending to misunderstand what she meant...it was an insult to everyone who has an interacial child in their life, an attempt to mock them and others who are concerned about these important issues.

[La Lubu]

Is "unpolitic" the new catchphrase for what we in the old school would simply term "just plain rude?"

[Nathan]

La Lubu,
New catchphrase? Nah. I think I actually made it up. What I mean is that I understand that most of you are probably unprepared for the things I say. That my thoughts will create discomfort as they challenge ideology, and I will be treated with anger and hostility. But I can live with that.

Lynn,
I understand your anger. Such a statement by a commenter is beyond the pale. But such stupidity identifies the commenter as a fool and an idiot; and it is no reflection on your relatives. It's your blog, of course, but I would have left the comments in place as a testimony to the person's stupidity. And I would have left an editor's comment saying exactly that. I'm convinced the best way to end racism is not to delete it, but to reveal it, let the sun shine in and make them feel stupid.

All,
I hope someday you can understand that as long as you continue to identify friends and relatives as "bi-racial", you are actually hindering the cause of "everyone just getting along". The key really is to treat race as nothing different than eye color, or earlobe detachment, or height, or whatever. It's an attribute of appearance, and nothing more. Race says absolutely nothing about the most important parts of a person: their heart, their conscience, their mind, their intelligence, their personality, their loves, their caring.

[sophonisba]

I think I actually made it up. What I mean is that I understand that most of you are probably unprepared for the things I say.

Actually, if you'd read many of the comments to Hugo's other posts, you'd know his blog is littered with the idle thoughts of the willfully obtuse and the mildly rude, so no, you're not showing anyone anything they haven't seen here before. It's understandable that you want to feel daring and special, but you're going to have to work a little harder.

[Nathan]

Thanks for helping make my point stronger! [grin]

[mythago]

Regarding race, it just doesn't come up.

How can it not "come up"? It's easier not to talk about these things, of course, but at some point your children are going to notice that a) not everybody has the same skin color, culture or national origin(s) they do and b) there are a lot of yahoos who are rather fixated on that notion.

The dithering about how you're a man and blah blah blah is just silly. If people think you're an idiot, it's not because of your penis. We can't exactly tell on the Internet unless you post pictures, and please don't.