Masturbation, take two: further reflections on sexuality and dialogue

I've been thinking about the discussion of sexuality and masturbation that has taken place below this post and elsewhere, all stemming from this offering from Bonnie, a conservative Christian.

I'm pleased that the few comments below my post have been civil, and sorry that not everyone who has weighed in at Bonnie's has been equally polite.  This "hot-button" (sorry) issue is one of those that forces reasonable people to confront the very real gulf that exists between secular progressives and religious conservatives.   I was raised as the former, and spent a period in my life living as and among the latter, so I'm keenly aware of just how difficult it can be for folks on one side to truly understand where the other side is "coming from".

It is axiomatic among feminists and progressive sex-ed workers that masturbation is a good thing.  Check out the (work-safe) archive on the subject at Teen Wire (sponsored by the folks at Planned Parenthood).  Here's a typical response to a question on the subject from a teen girl:

It is completely normal for both women and men to masturbate — it is not "dirty." Masturbation is a perfectly healthy activity. Although some people may worry that masturbation is harmful, it actually is one of the body's most effective ways to relieve stress.

It is too bad that so many people worry about masturbation. The majority of people masturbate. Women and men masturbate throughout their lives, whether or not they are in sexual relationships with other people. But because masturbation is so misunderstood, the majority of people who masturbate have unnecessary guilty feelings and shame about it. This shame and guilt can lead to difficulties in a person's sense of self-esteem and in a person's relationships with other people.

I've taught sex-ed at All Saints for the last four years, and on more than one occasion, have given almost this exact answer.   For folks steeped in a liberal understanding of human sexuality, nothing could seem to be more pointless -- and needlessly guilt-inducing -- than trying to discourage kids (and adults) of either sex from masturbating!  Indeed, in my work as a sexuality educator (going back to my days at Cal as a volunteer with what was called Peer Sexuality Outreach), I've generally taken a "pro-masturbation" position.  I've defended that take on sound psychological grounds.

Yet when I read Bonnie's piece, I was provoked, in a good way.  She doesn't write as a "prude"; she doesn't suggest that masturbation is "dirty".  Rather, she constructs an argument, using spiritual principles, that makes the case that our sexuality is always about connecting with another human being.   Though she writes as a Protestant, Bonnie isn't far off from John Paul II's famous "theology of the body".  Like JPII, Bonnie argues that sexuality is misused when we direct it towards ourselves alone.   Men and women alike, according to this argument, are given the gift of sexuality to create unity and passion and life.  Folks like Bonnie take the euphemism "making love" with real seriousness - sexuality is intended to bind two people closer together, to make love stronger, and in ideal circumstances, to produce children.   

A progressive might say, but how does masturbation, especially in singleness, harm that lovely vision?  "Theology of the body" folks make the case that when we masturbate, even in adolescent singleness, we are training our bodies and our souls to see sex as something that is entirely about us.   Each act of masturbation makes us, in a sense, more self-centered.  It's not that sperm will be wasted (that argument is never used any longer by any serious folks, and besides, it ignores the reality of female masturbation); it's that spiritually and psychologically we are conditioning ourselves to think of sexuality as being exclusively about our own satisfaction, pleasure, and release.

As a progressive Christian, I take that argument seriously.  For the reasons I gave yesterday, I reject it.  But it's one thing to thoughtfully reject a moral position, and another to dismiss it as the ravings of a wingnut!  To publicly take an anti-masturbation stance for the reasons that she does is, frankly, a brave thing for Bonnie to do; she risks ridicule and opprobrium.  I'm sorry to say she's had some of both directed towards her.  That disappoints me.  Perhaps because I have spent so many years working with youth around issues of faith and sexuality, I'm eager to listen to those whose views are radically different from my own.  Bonnie didn't sway me, but she challenged me -- and I enjoy a civil and robust challenge to my worldview.

To be sure, my own annoyance gets kindled when I think about some of the kids I've worked with in the college and the church over the years.  Though the vast majority of All Saints youth come from fairly liberal households, every once in a while we do get teens in our Wednesday night program who do come from very conservative backgrounds.  I've privately comforted a 16 year-old boy who told me that his parents had raised him to believe masturbation was a sin.  He had tried and tried to refrain, but never with success.  He was worried, quite literally, about going to hell; he was also worried that everyone else could somehow "tell" his secret by looking at his face.  As I reassured him, gently, that masturbation was not only normal but a gift, I had to quiet the anger that grew inside me at his parents!  To my liberal mind, his guilt seemed such a colossal waste, and his parents deserved a good shaking!  Sometimes, I still feel that way.

But though I will continue to teach and advocate a progressive approach on the subject in my work with young people, I have gained a fresh understanding in recent years of the legitimate theological underpinnings of the anti-masturbation position.  Where I would have once dismissed Bonnie's post out-of-hand, I am now eager to engage in dialogue.   We are, after all, both committed to Christ and committed to young people. We want joy and fulfillment for the children with whom we work.  And our radically different approaches to this most sensitive of subjects are both motivated, I'm convinced, by profound faith and profound love.

Comments

[Amanda Marcotte]

You'll like this--Dawn Eden recently wrote a post where she wielded the "theology of the body" to imply that I'm a skank because I "contracept". Dunno if you saw that. I appreciate your blogging about Christianity--I wish there were more Christians who truly considered their beliefs instead of used them as a way to feel superior to others.

[Amanda Marcotte]

*Christian bloggers. There are tons of non-blogging Christians who aren't particularly interested in piously calling others sluts.

[Hugo]

Amanda, when any Christian writes or speaks in such a way as to leave another person feeling alienated, condemned, or, for that matter, like a "skank", they've fallen short of the mark. If we are to advocate for the Gospel, we've got to do it winsomely and lovingly -- and above all else, with profound humility. You don't attract folks in any other way.

[Hugo]

I read Dawn's post, and agree it was offensive.  (For folks interested, here's the post and here's Amanda's follow-up and Lauren's.)

I understand where Dawn's coming from, but cannot accept her staggering presumptuousness.  Few techniques are less effective in Christian apologetics than saying "I'm a woman, I know how women feel and what they really want, and any woman who disagrees is kidding herself."  Ouch.

[Matt Leinart]

Morality-

In the 1700s, masturbation was considered a sin against nature. It was a sin against nature because masturbation meant the spilling of seed for purposes other than reproduction. In the 1800s, masturbation was viewed as a medical problem. Individuals who masturbated frequently were put into asylums. Now in the 21st century, morality issues still remain!

[Stentor]

Apologies if this is excessively philosophical ...

Your rephrasing of the "theology of the body" argument against masturbation is interesting. Reading Bonnie's post, I took her view to be a deontological one -- that God creates things with a certain purpose in mind, and that it is immoral to use them in any way inconsistent with God's purpose. But you present it as a consequentialist argument -- that masturbation will make us less able to have good connecting-with-another-person sex. The two arguments would require much different responses.

The deontological version raises some much deeper disagreements between anti-masturbation Christians and pro-masturbation secularists, such as whether things are designed with purposes, and if so whether that purpose is binding on other people who may encounter the thing. The consequentialist argument is both more plausible to a secularist, as well as being amenable to empirical demonstration of its central claim. But things get tricky if someone whose real commitment is to the deontological argument tries to use the consequentialist one in order to win support. Much frustration results when a consequentialist argument is disproven (and their high empirical content typically makes consequentialist arguments very vulnerable to disproof) but nobody changes their mind because they're really deontologists fighting a consequentialist proxy war.

[Noumena]

"Theology of the body" folks make the case that when we masturbate, even in adolescent singleness, we are training our bodies and our souls to see sex as something that is entirely about us. Each act of masturbation makes us, in a sense, more self-centered. ... spiritually and psychologically we are conditioning ourselves to think of sexuality as being exclusively about our own satisfaction, pleasure, and release.

This reminds me of the more robust feminist arguments against pornography: nearly all contemporary pornography is phallocentric and displays one class of participant ('female') as existing only for the sexual use of the other class ('male') (scare quotes because these roles can be found in non-heterosexual porn); so, when porn is consumed as erotica, it encourages phallocentric sexuality and the objectification of 'femininity'. I think there's a missing premise in both arguments, and it's more or less identical: if someone (performs selfish sexual acts by themselves)/(views misogynistic porn) then they will (be a selfish lover)/(be misogynistic).

I think this premise is wrong, at least when it's put as a necessary implication. But, generally speaking, people (both men and women) in a culture where sex is, for the most part, all about getting the guy off, are likely to adopt that sort of unhealthy sexuality as their own. So I'd say the thing is encourage a healthy attitude towards masturbation, porn, and one's sexual partner: masturbate (if you want) without thinking sex is all about you getting off and watch porn (if you want) without thinking sex is all about the penis.

[Winter]

As an atheist I can't really engage the theological discussion, although I have found it interesting to read about these shifts in Christian thinking. I was raised as a catholic and what I mainly rememember is the appalling weight of guilt, shame and misery attached to masturbation. Of course this was far far more damaging than any actual masturbation taking place.

[Winter]

"far more damaging"! Why did I write that? I don't think masturbation is at all damaging (do I?). Gosh! It's so easy to fall back into these kind of old assumptions. I meant to say that the guilt is the damage, not the mastubation: period.

[Mark]

"What I am arguing is that our sexuality is a gift from God, a gift with more than one purpose: Christians are indeed called to honor God with their bodies, but we are also called to take our own delight in living as embodied creatures. Pleasure is part of God's gift; to receive and to give pleasure can be honoring to God".

I see where you are going with this and I think it is a bit dangerous in regards to having a relationship with God. Unfortunately, people want to make concessions and have "fudge room" when it comes to discipleship. The bottom line is you can't have it both ways. On the one hand you (the universal "you")say, I believe in God and Jesus. You may also say that the Bible is an inspired work of God. But, then you say, but you can't take the bible literally. It's as if you want to have your cake and eat it too. It doesn't work that way.

The flesh is weak and whatever weakness you have will be exploited by Belial/Samael. Because, if you truly believe in God than certainly you believe in the Evil forces at work (I don't use the term Satan because it is a title and a creation of the Middle Ages). You will be tempted and tried with the very thing you desire most. If it is sex, food, money, etc. it will be used against you in order to sever your relationship with God. In regards to guilt, why should you carry it around? If you truly have faith in God, ask for forgiveness, If you have faith he will forgive you. Guilt is no more than doubt taking hold and it will hurt your relationship with God. Once you are forgiven, it's gone.

Paul in his letter to Corinth also states: "Everything is permissible for me"-but not everything is beneficial." "Everything is permissible for me"-But I will not be mastered by anything"(1Corninthians 6:12).

Pleasure is tricky because through it, if we are not careful, we can lose sight of God.
Fun and feeling good are not bad in and of itself. When you place your relationship with God on the backburner and give all your attention to the things that give you pleasure you may be in a bit of trouble spiritually.

In regard to Amanda's comment: Unfortunately, there are not many "nice" people out there. But that can be said about, professors, lawyers, doctors, etc. The Bible clearly discusses condemnation and salvation. When I discuss God and the testament of the Lord Jesus with someone I make it clear that they are not my words, but they are written in the Gospels. I show them the passages and leave it at that. Being rude about it is not necessary. Name calling and all that other stuff is not of the Holy Spirit. Jesus stated that "many are invited, but few are chosen". Again, we can't have it both ways, but it seems that people want to selectively censor out of the Bible what they feel is "insensitive". People shouldn't get offended when they are shown in the Bible where it states we are condemned if we refuse a relationship and service to God. The death on the cross would have been a meaningless act if condemnation doesn't exist.

[mythago]

secular progressives and religious conservatives

I assume you meant "secular progressives and Christian conservatives".

The argument against masturbation seems to assume that anything self-directed is selfish.

[Mark]

While running I pondered on something that Hugo wrote, which says, "I reassured him, gently, that masturbation was not only normal but a gift, I had to quiet the anger that grew inside me at his parents! To my liberal mind, his guilt seemed such a colossal waste, and his parents deserved a good shaking!"

First, masturbation is not gift. There is nowhere in the Bible that you could point to that states that. So, on that I think you are a bit irresponsible. His parents didn't deserve a good shaking (but, I can see how you felt). What they needed was a true understanding of discipleship and service to God. I think that they could have gone about educating their son about God and his role as a future disciple. Another point to take into consideration is that many parents don't practice what they preach. Dads have nudie mags and maybe an X-rated movie in their drawer. The kid learns from the parents. The parents do this stuff, so the kid thinks, "why shouldn't I".

Young children touch their bodies from curiosity and not from a sexualized position. But, as they grow older society and parents sexualize them. The child begins to think in sexual terms. The magazines, movies, ads, etc. all sexualize the bodies of boys and girls (girls more so).
Now as adults the curiosity of our bodies is gone and everything we do is in relation to the pleasure we recieve fom sex. When we lack self-restraint and give in to urges we hurt ourselves as disciples of Jesus and servants of God. As disciples we should not in any way give concession to watching porn or masturbating once in a while. This grieves the Holy Spirit. As adults and disciples we should practice self-restaint and continually seek God's guidance.

Paul in his letter to Rome says, "Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their mind set on what the Spirit desires"(Romans 8:5).

And, in his letter to Colossi he says, "Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. . . Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil, desires, and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways in the life you once lived" (Colossians 3:2-8).

remember, "we have an obligation and it is not to the sinful nature".

[mythago]

Young children touch their bodies from curiosity

Young children touch their bodies because it feels pleasant--this is obviously not the same as adult sexuality, but it's also not true that you feel nothing below the waist until you are a grown-up. I'm not sure where you get the notion that our culture encourages a healthy, age-appropriate attitude towards children and their bodies.

How does masturbation by adults "grieve the Holy Spirit"? Seriously?

[Tripp]

Yeah, this is awful.

The ideal situation for many orthodox Christians is that sexuality, our desire for one another even, is indeed created with a purpose. That purpose is the creation of children and/or the "building up" of married couples. There is no foolish ideal that each time we engage in intercourse that a child will come of it, but intention matters...so does affection. Thus, contraception is out of the question...as is oral sex and other forms of foreplay that result in men's orgasms.

So, arguing psychology etc is really approaching this conversation on unrelated ground. I think the "philosophical argument" sheds some good light.

Now, one thing that may be worth revisiting is the direct connection between sin and shame or guilt. I tend toward Calvins' thinking here. We are always in a state of sin. Only God can give us grace. There is nothing we can do (or not do?) that can save us. Soooo...be gentle with yoursleves. Life as a Christian can be a rigorous discipline, but being gentle withourselves, learning to forgive ourselves is a discipline as well.

This gives something like masturbation a context, I think, if one believes it to be a sin.

Now, where women and masturbation some into the conversation is still a theological puzzle for me. Sadly a woman's orgasm has nothing to do with precreation. Admittedly, it may encourage a couple to keep on keepin' on if she enjoys herself! Ha! But it has no direct effect on makin' babies. So, is it really a sin to feel good? If it is, then no more entertaining movies, delicious foods etc for any of us.

Interesting thinking here, gang.

[mark]

Mythago:

"As disciples we should not in any way give concession to watching porn or masturbating once in a while. This grieves the Holy Spirit. As adults and disciples we should practice self-restraint and continually seek God's guidance".

Adult masturbation includes fantasy, which is obviously sexual in nature. Some adults may watch an X-rated movie, read a mag, or use some other external stimulus while masturbating. I had stated that their is a danger in this in regards to our discipleship. When you do something that you know that is in direct opposition to God's will you grieve the Holy Spirit. If you truly have the Holy Spirit, you have to ask yourself, how is this act glorifying God? And, would the Holy Spirit guide you to do the very thing you are doing i.e. masturbation, watching porn, etc. In the gospels Jesus does talk about lust, sexual immorality, drunkenness, etc. and how these types of behavior and people who participate in them are not of the Kingdom of Heaven.

As I mentioned, Paul in his letters to Colossi clearly says that we should forsake the old self and live in Christ. So, why would you contemplate participating in behavior that would harm your relationship with God. Granted we are weak and are tempted, as I am daily, but through prayer and focusing on glorifying Elohim and his convenant we can overcome. We should not make concessions and we should glorify and praise God daily. Going to the movies, a concert, or dancing are not "bad" in themselves. We can participate, but we must be careful that we don't focus on these things.

What I don't understand is how people can claim that the Bible is a Holy and divine inspired book, go and worship and then say, "well, it's cool that I watch a porn once and a while" or "God created sex, so it's cool to masturbate" or even worse, "well, it' not meant to be taken literally". You cannot claim to have faith when the foundation, The Holy Bible, is something you may find "imaginative" and not meant to be taken seriously. There would be no purpose. Unfortunately, the use of labels such as Orthodox, Conservative, liberal, Catholic, Anabaptist, etc., seem to serve personal agendas.

Sex between two people is not a problem. The PROBLEM is when sex or some other pleasureable experience becomes your sole focus. This is a sad fact for many people.

My advice would be to pray and ask God for guidance. He will answer your prayer through faith. It is my hope that each and every one of you grow in Christ our Lord. Put on the full armor of God and be wary of those that may try to instill doubt in your faith in God.

BTW: what was meant by the "This is Awful" comment made by Tripp???

[Tripp]

Mark, sorry...modifiers.

It is an awful hard conversation.

[mythago]

Some adults may watch an X-rated movie, read a mag, or use some other external stimulus while masturbating.

So the problem is that they may incorporate inappropriate material into masturbation--just as they may do with, say, sex with their spouse. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to condemn those things?

Because you haven't really explained how masturbating "grieves the Holy Spirit".

[mark]

Tripp, thanks for the explanation. Sorry is not necessary. I just hoped that I didn't say something you may have found offensive. The internet is a terrible place to have a discussion about these types of matters. So much is lost in Cyberland.

Mythago, First I am not condemning masturbation and sexuality. Neither am I condemning X-rated films, etc. That is not for me to do. It is God who will judge and condemn. All I can do is tell you what the Bible says and share my experience as a servant of God. God in his mercy and through grace has given me a new life in Christ. I think it is wrong when people bad mouth others as in the case of Amanda, or they bad mouth homosexuals, and try to dictate what should be, all in the name of Jesus. It is my hope that they re-evaluate their relationships with God and their discipleship. Because Christ our Lord didn't run around bad mouthing people. So, please it is my hope that you don't think or feel that I am somehow condemning something or someone. The Bible says what it says and God will guide those that honor him.

I did explain how the Holy Spirit would be grieved through masturbation. You grieve the Holy Spirit because you continue to practice sin as a disciple of Christ (assumed you are serving God). Masturbation begins with lust and want and reflects the inability to control bodily urges. Eventually, your relationship with God will be severed. By your own doing without realizing it.

You answer to God, not me (I mean that in a nice way) It seems that you would want to seek God's guidance regarding the matter. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Paul states this in his letter to Rome,

"he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have recieved from God? You are not your own: you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body"(Romans 6-18-20).

As disciples we should honor God in everything we do. Give him thanks and ask for his blessing. From a non-religious viewpoint we should take care of our bodies by eating good food, exercising, and avoiding damaging elements such as tobacco. We should treat our bodies with respect. As disciples we must go one step further by allowing our bodily temples to glorify God.

Paul also stated, "What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into his death? . . .In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive in God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires"(Romans 6:1-12).

Here are some questions to ask yourself: is it something that God would condone? Would Jesus have been all for it? Why am I masturbating? Is there some medicinal purpose? How does it help my service to God?

God bless and it is my hope that each of you grows in Christ our Lord. Let us not allow these discussions to create emnity or division. I hope that all of us are edified and our faith strengthened through these discussions.

[mark]

mythago,

"Both ‘quenching' and ‘grieving' the Spirit are similar in there affects, both hinder a godly lifestyle. Both happen when a believer sins against God and follows their own worldly desires. The only correct road to follow is the road that leads the believer closer to God and purity and farther away from the world and sin".

[mythago _]

Masturbation begins with lust and want and reflects the inability to control bodily urges.

I take it you adhere to the teaching that marriage is a poor alternative to lifelong chastity (though better than fornication)?

[Mark]

The questions that should be asked is, How serious are you in serving God? How can a person say that the Bible is a divinely inspired and holy book, but pick and choose the bits they like and don't like?

Debating the issue is not healthy or edifying in any way. Again, trying to find fudge room in regards to discipleship is the work of man trying to impose his will on God. Again, this is an issue where you should seek God's guidance.

We must all be careful when trying to apply Academic theories to spiritual issues. Political and social theories can be dangerous. Remember, "the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will renounce the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared with a hot iron"(1Timothy 4:1-2). We must always be on guard in relation to our service to God.

As for chastity, I was never one for it before coming to serve God. But, I think chastity is good. It may not be for all people. Again, you must pray and seek God's guidance. God will not burden you with anything that you cannot handle. I am of the belief that chasity can be practiced in two forms, short term and long term. I see it along the lines of fasting and prayer. During the chaste period you should pray fervently and serve God. It can be a glorious thing. The world laughs and mocks this, but then the world isn't interested in truly serving God.

Marriage can be wonderous and should "be held in honor by all, and let the marriage bed be kept undefiled; for God will judge fornicators and adulterers"(Hebrews 13:4). Marriage shouldn't be taken lightly. Again, pray and ask for God to guide you and reveal his will in regards to marriage.

Now, as a disciple of Christ if you continue to doubt and question and act from the flesh the bible clearly states that "those who blasphemed the Holy Spirit lay beyond the forgiveness of God (Matthew 12:22-32) and that "anyone who sins willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth lies beyond the forgiveness of God"(Hebrews 10:26-31). Because in essence what you are doing is making a mockery of God's grace and the crucifixion. And, God, will not be mocked.

God bless and I hope that God reveals his glory and will to you.

[Antigone]

M'kay Mark, you say right away:

"How can a person say that the Bible is a divinely inspired and holy book, but pick and choose the bits they like and don't like? "

Do you enjoy Red Lobster? Cut your hair? Shave? Wear polycotton blends? If you answered "yes" to any of these above, you ARE picking and choosing which parts of your Holy Book to follow. Plus there are other parts of it, some stuff in the Bible is meant to be taken figuratively. You don't think taking some cash and burying it in the backyard is a sin do you? Of course not, the whole Talents parable is not really about money at all, but not hiding your god-given skills.

So, debating and discussing this is HIGHLY important. Since the Bible doesn't come right out and say "Masturbation makes the baby Jesus cry" we really can't say, without a shadow of a doubt, that it is bad. Ergo, what you say isn't necessarily the truth any more than any other person on the earth. No one has a "god hotline", so Christians are busy trying to interpret a 2000+ year book, figure out what is literal, figure out what is figurative, figure out what is the correct interpretation, and figure out what is simply a product of the society it's written in.

[mythago]

The questions that should be asked is

Meaning, you can't answer the one I *did* ask.

[djw]

Mark, your comments here reveal that the way the Bible "reads" to you (and like-minded people) is also the (singular) correct reading of the Bible. I think this is a pretty tenuous position, on both substantive procedural grouds, but I can respect the conviction. What I can't respect is when that conviction is coupled with statements like this:

Debating the issue is not healthy or edifying in any way. Again, trying to find fudge room in regards to discipleship is the work of man trying to impose his will on God. Again, this is an issue where you should seek God's guidance.

We must all be careful when trying to apply Academic theories to spiritual issues. Political and social theories can be dangerous. Remember, "the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will renounce the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared with a hot iron"(1Timothy 4:1-2). We must always be on guard in relation to our service to God.

Look, if your reading is so obviously and transparently correct, then by all means assert it unequivocally and loudly. But if these other interpretations are so obviously wrong, why this urge to get other people who seriously attempt to read the Bible as best they know how and come to different conclusions to just shut up about it? The snippet quoted above suggests that Hugo (and, frankly, most who people who call themselves Christians, at least in the US) are not just hypocrites, but under the thrall of some nasty demons. Is this what you think of all people who read the Bible and differ in their understanding of it's meaning from you? If not, what are you getting at here?

[mark]

To Djw, antigone and Mythago:

I was not being nasty or rude in any way. Nor was I hiding any sinister motive. I assumed, possibly incorrectly, that most of the people that posted here were Christian. (If I was wrong, then I apologize if I offended your sensibilites). I never insulted Hugo Schywzer in my post. In my assumption that everyone on this board were Christians I quoted from 1 Timothy to show the danger in fooling around with the gospel and trying to add or take away stuff. All I did was show you what was written. I didn't say, "hey here is what I think it means" and break the sentence structure apart. It says what it says. Again, if it offended your sensiblities I apologize because it was not my intention.

I did say that you should seek God's guidance on the matter (who has the final say on the matter). I never said that my post was the defintive answer. God's guidance is necessary in matters such as these.
The Holy Spirit is not a spirit of argument, anger and bitterness. It is a Spirit of love and compassion. Through continuing this discussion through snide comments and an attempt to show that the other person is a "bit off" is unhealthy, divisive and not of the Holy Spirit. The apostles in various letters did make it clear that in-fighting was and is not healthy as disciples of Christ.

I also made clear that You answer to God not to me. I am not here judging or berating anyone, if you read my post correctly. My experience with God is apart from any church, preachers or any other religious organization. As I stated in another post, those that judge, hate, kill, etc., in the name of Christ are way off. They have missed it and are not serving God. Service to God transcends politics and labels. Once we get caught up in that stuff, our relationship with God is in danger.

BTW: Mythago, I did answer your question about grieving the Holy Spirit.

Djw: your use of the term "substantive procedural grounds" was great. Nice use of pre-law lingo. "Juridical" is one word I also get a kick out of.

God bless and it is my hope that you grow in Christ.