First off, as I've mentioned before, my home computer is in the shop. I hope to have it back on Monday, but the reduced frequency of my posts is linked to my inability to post from the house. Only on brief visits to the office can I bang away at the keyboard.
Many of my MRA readers have pronounced themselves dissatisfied with Tuesday's post in response to Dr. E's query. Keri gave what I think is the best response:
...if it were absolutely necessary to frame things in terms of "masculine" and "feminine," then there are some "masculine" traits I value in friends of both genders and some "feminine" traits I value in friends of both genders. Real or perceived "gender differences" are entirely irrelevant in terms of my friendships, because my friends are individuals. Anyone who cannot accept that answer obviously has a drastically different perception of human relationships than I do, one that gives gender far more weight than I am willing to grant it, and there's really no point in debating about it.
The question, as originally posed, was NOT "What does Hugo think are inherently masculine qualities?" Dr. E asked: Can you tell us what you like about men? I took that to be a polite, personal question about my own feelings -- not about my views on men and masculinity in contemporary society. I've answered the question, as it was asked, to the best of my ability, and have nothing further to say on the subject at this time.
Am I dodging the follow-up questions? Well, if you consider having better things to do to be "dodging", than so be it. As BritGirlSF says, the weather has been pretty darned nice lately. Combine great weather and summer vacation and an impending wedding with the absence of a home computer, and yeah, I've got things I'd rather do than answer every MRA question thrown at me.
On a distantly related subject:
I had lunch today with L., a 17 year-old from my youth group whom I've been spending time with for a couple of years. He's an amazing guy: a talented musician, gentle, handsome, thoughtful, creative. (He's in the process of redoing the floors in his entire house, by himself. He's ripping up carpet and putting down tile, and that's more than I would try on my own.) I heard about his new girlfriend, and we talked about how so few of his friends actually "date". They hang out, they "hook up", but it's rare in his circle for a couple to have a planned outing.
L. wants to take his new girlfriend out, and asked for ideas. I started by telling him something I was told many years ago by a wise old fellow: every good date has a beginning, a middle, and an end. No, sexual activity doesn't count for any one of those three stages, though it can happen "after the end" of the date, if so desired. L. liked the sound of that, and asked for an example. Here's what I suggested: A typical beginning (given adolescent budgets) might be a walk in the L.A. Arboretum, complete with duck feeding and peacock gazing. This could be followed by dinner, and L. and I discussed some good, non-chain, inexpensive places to go in the area. After that, perhaps another walk to get ice cream, or a moonlight walk in Eaton Canyon. The important thing, I stressed to L., is that he take the time to plan the date. There's nothing less romantic, I feel, than wandering around saying "What do you want to do? " "I don't know, what do you want to do?" Too many of the young kids I know fall into that trap.
L. seemed enthusiastic. Since we've been on gender topics lately, yes, I would give the same piece of advice I gave to him to a 17 year-old girl. I don't believe that only boys should plan dates; my somewhat old-fashioned "beginning, middle, and end" advice does not come with prescribed gender roles! What matters is not "what the boy does"; what matters is, I think, that young people embrace rituals that allow them to feel noticed and valued. In a dating relationship, I said to L., few things are better than feeling "planned for." He agreed. He'll report, he says.
Tremble, MRAs; Hugo is spending lots of time this summer hanging out with young men.
Hugo - You are correct. I was curious about what you liked in men. Maybe a better way to explain my question would be to use a quote from you:
Hugo said: "Oddly, it was my work teaching women's studies that forced me to work on my relationships with men. About 1998, it finally hit home to me that much of my academic interest in women's studies was rooted in my own fear and dislike of my fellow men."
I am curious about this "dislike of my fellow men." What was it you disliked? What is it that you now "like" in your fellow men?
Posted by: Dr E | August 12, 2005 at 08:03 PM
what matters is, I think, that young people embrace rituals that allow them to feel noticed and valued.
Yes! Now there's some good advice I can give to my newly dating 16 year old sister; beginning, middle and end certainly rings true when I think of good dates I've had (lunch, afternoon movie then back to his place for Scrabble works well) Thanks!
Posted by: ms. b. | August 13, 2005 at 01:48 PM
"I heard about his new girlfriend, and we talked about how so few of his friends actually "date". They hang out, they 'hook up', but it's rare in his circle for a couple to have a planned outing."
That's true, I'm afraid. I'm a victim of that culture, somewhat, and not because I decided to partake of it and it chewed me up and it spit me out whole. No, my story is one of attending college and hoping to FIND someone to date and hold hands with around campus, only to discover that a large part of the student body preferred to have a few at a party and then have a spit-swapping session with an acquaintance/friend/stranger. I never understood why you'd want to taste what someone else had for dinner, even if you were quite close with the person, and so I certainly didn't care to do so with someone I wasn't close with. In fact, if I was at a party and talked to someone I thought was interesting, I'd be afraid to talk too long, lest someone should THINK I was going for the "hook."
"L. wants to take his new girlfriend out, and asked for ideas. I started by telling him something I was told many years ago by a wise old fellow: every good date has a beginning, a middle, and an end. No, sexual activity doesn't count for any one of those three stages, though it can happen 'after the end' of the date, if so desired. L. liked the sound of that, and asked for an example. Here's what I suggested: A typical beginning (given adolescent budgets) might be a walk in the L.A. Arboretum, complete with duck feeding and peacock gazing. This could be followed by dinner, and L. and I discussed some good, non-chain, inexpensive places to go in the area. After that, perhaps another walk to get ice cream, or a moonlight walk in Eaton Canyon. The important thing, I stressed to L., is that he take the time to plan the date. There's nothing less romantic, I feel, than wandering around saying 'What do you want to do?' 'I don't know, what do you want to do?' Too many of the young kids I know fall into that trap."
As one who's never actually dated (see above), this sounds nice, although I don't know if you need three parts, necessarily. And, while it's good to have a plan, there's something to be said for spontaneity, too.
"L. seemed enthusiastic. Since we've been on gender topics lately, yes, I would give the same piece of advice I gave to him to a 17 year-old girl. I don't believe that only boys should plan dates; my somewhat old-fashioned 'beginning, middle, and end' advice does not come with prescribed gender roles! What matters is not 'what the boy does'; what matters is, I think, that young people embrace rituals that allow them to feel noticed and valued."
I agree on the gender roles. They both should share in the plans, share the costs, share in the tokens of courtesy, share the driving, et cetera. Both people, indeed, should get to feel noticed and valued. I understand that my novice status in all of this will disqualify me (in the eyes of some) from having an opinion, but then it has also allowed me some degree of objectivity...
Posted by: bmmg39 | August 14, 2005 at 12:14 PM
Or at least take turns. Generally with dating, somebody has to do the initial invite.
Posted by: mythago | August 14, 2005 at 12:17 PM