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July 20, 2005

Comments

NYMOM

Well I have to disagree with you.

People can admire the beauty of someone and think about it. Maybe even write about it presuming the person they're writing about will never see it.

Actually it almost like this Gee was fired for a 'thought' crime as opposed to a real one.

Just thinking (or writing) about someone you admire for their beauty or intellect, whatever it is you admire about them, should NOT constitute a firing offense.

Just my opinion.

BritGirlSF

Question - just how public is this blog of his? Because if it's a private blog intended to be seen only by his friends I think this was perhaps a bit unprofessional but not a firing offense. If he were my employee I would have been more inclined to bring him in for a talk to make sure that he wasn't making the hot girl feel uncomfortable and wasn't actually neglecting the other students (if he actually was neglecting the other students then couldn't his department chair intervene and make sure that the behavior was corrected? I'm sure this isn't the first case of a teacher neglecting some of their students in favor of the ones they like best).
I think that we're disagreeing on the thoughts versus actions question again. I think that if he was treating all the students fairly then this really isn't much of an issue, and the teacher has the right to post whatever he wants on his blog even if we find his comments objectionable. If we can assume that both students and other faculty had access to and were reading the blog, and the teacher know that, then we have a very different situation.

djw

My understanding is it wasn't so much a blog as a message/discussion board for sportswriters.

NYMOM

"My understanding is it wasn't so much a blog as a message/discussion board for sportswriters."

NYMOM said: So he probably had NO idea it would ever get back to this students.

Lynn Gazis-Sax

Looking at the articles linked, it seems it was a fairly well-trafficked networking site for sports journalists, that Gee was an experienced journalist, that he was teaching a journalism class, and that he kept talking about the hot student after another commenter had warned him that his comments could easily be Googled by the student or the university at any time.

I understand that we mostly expect our own blogs, and perhaps even more our comments on other blogs, to be under the radar. I'd rather not have some of my comments turn up in the Washington Post. But it seems to me in this particular case that the guy was being pretty dumb to be sure his remarks wouldn't get back to the student.

djw

Furthermore, I've been told (haven't actually seen it) that many sportswriters used it as a forum to speak frankly about their jobs, and as such used aliases to post there. Gee couldn't be bothered.

I'm all about more job protection for adjuncts, but I must confess I have a hard mustering up much sympathy for Gee.

Hugo

Agreed. If he'd sent an email to a friend, that would be one thing. If he'd posted anonymously, that would be one thing (if he removed all identifiying info about the course). But he didn't care. Perhaps he wanted his bitchin' hot Sabra to know.

NYMOM: If I posted the same sort of thing on this blog, with my name attached, about a gal in one of my classes, would you defend it? (Not that I ever would, of course, for all the reasons I've made so clear. Mind you, I have tenure; but tenure doesn't preclude a harassment law suit, nor shouuld it.)

NYMOM

"NYMOM: If I posted the same sort of thing on this blog, with my name attached, about a gal in one of my classes, would you defend it? (Not that I ever would, of course, for all the reasons I've made so clear. Mind you, I have tenure; but tenure doesn't preclude a harassment law suit, nor shouuld it.)"

Believe it or not I would defend you as long as you didn't identify the student by name. I mean I just think people should be allowed to THINK or WRITE about somebody 'hot' or interesting or lovely whatever, without it becoming a crime practically.

I mean Gee's been fired from his job and will he EVER be able to work as a teacher again now with this on his record?

I can see if the administration called him in to discuss it privately and said the students are uncomfortable now with you teaching the class and they allowed him to quietly resign or go on a mandatory leave for a year. But to fire him? I mean they almost labeled the guy as a sex offender now for something that was relatively innane, as he never ACTED upon it.

I don't know, it seems like overkill to me.

So now what is left to do when a teacher REALLY crosses the line into acting on their thoughts as opposed to just writing about them.

Hugo

Well, NYMOM, in a class with six people in it, it must have been blatantly obvious who he was talking about -- especially with the unfortunate ethnic reference attached!

If he was a sex offender, he'd be prosecuted. No one is saying the fellow should go to jail -- just that his lack of professionalism means that the university doesn't consider him fit to teach. It was his first teaching job ever, and clearly, he belongs in a different line of work. If you can't see your students as people rather than objects, you don't belong in the classroom.

NYMOM

"It was his first teaching job ever, and clearly, he belongs in a different line of work. If you can't see your students as people rather than objects, you don't belong in the classroom."

NYMOM said: Well you're a teacher, I'm not. Thus I'll accept your judgement on him although frankly, it seems a bit harsh, somewhat unlike the Hugo I've come to know on this blog.

Hugo

So be it, NYMOM. I'm sure he's a lovely man; that doesn't mean his comments didn't make his teaching position untenable.

BritGirlSF

The fact that he should have been aware that this comment might get back to the students puts this in a very different light. Why not just use a pseudonym? After all, that's what a lot of academics do, and for very good reason.
Question - did the department try talking to him and getting him to modify the offending behavior first? Because that would have been my first step (speaking as someone who is accustomed to managing staff). especially given that this is first teaching post.
Don't get me wrong - I absolutely understand why this is a very bad thing for a teacher to do, especially in a small class where favouritism is especially obvious. I just think that there are other disciplinary steps which should be taken first rather than firing someone. I would think that the way this was handled may leave the university open to an unfair dismissal lawsuit.
Wow, that HR/legal training I had to sit through seems to have made more of an impact than I initially realised.

mythago

I just think that there are other disciplinary steps which should be taken first rather than firing someone.

Racism, sexism and bag-of-hammers stupidity? I think that's enough for the disciplinary step to be "seeya, pal." He didn't have tenure or an employment contract.

BritGirlSF

Two words - paper trail. I think that the possibility for an unfair dismissal lawsuit here is huge. I'm coming from the point of view of having had to fire people and go through the proper steps to cover one's ass legally.

Sally

I think the risk of a lawsuit would be just as high if they didn't fire him. He admitted that he was so distracted by his attraction to a student that he was having trouble teaching his students fairly. Any student who disliked his or her grade could argue that his bias came into play.

BritGirlSF

Good point, Sally, but I also wonder how much of the "I'm too distracted to teach" was just hyperbole or boasting to his buddies.

mythago

Two words - paper trail. I think that the possibility for an unfair dismissal lawsuit here is huge.

Whenever you fire an asshole, no matter how justified the firing, they will probably sue you. Assholes do not gracefully accept that their actions were worthy of the boot. That doesn't mean they're likely to be successful.

Hugo

"Whenever you fire an asshole, no matter how justified the firing, they will probably sue you. Assholes do not gracefully accept that their actions were worthy of the boot. That doesn't mean they're likely to be successful."

Nor does it mean the firing was undeserved.

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