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June 15, 2005

Comments

Mr. Bad

This is an interesting thread, so I'd like to offer a few observations and thoughts:

First, I believe that at least in this space most of you have a tendency to lay the blame/responsibility for controlling one's behavior predominantly or exclusively on men; Hugo's position on this is typical. However, I believe that it's also incumbent on women to be more self-aware about how they are coming across in various social and workplace situations. Throughout history (or 'herstory' if you prefer) women have learned to use their sex/sexuality as currency in negotiations and interactions with men, so IMO it's very hard for them not to act in ways that lead men on in order to get what they want and similarly difficult for men not to respond to those cues. I personally have found this to be true in many work and social situations, i.e., that while I've noticed women using their sexuality in non-social situations, school, etc., I've not acted on it. It's one thing to notice a woman's beauty - IMO it's ingrained and natural for men to do so - however, I agree that it's also important for us men to not act on it. At the same time, IMO it's also just as important for women to realize the tremendous power their sexuality gives them and thus to maintain professionalism and not use it to gain advantage. In other words, women using their sexuality to gain advantage or manipulate men in business situations is just as unethical as men acting on their sexual attraction to women. Therefore, the burden for keeping things professional between men and women who aren't married or SOs should be mutual and equal.

Second, when reading through these posts I'm impressed (but not surprised) at the mixed-messages that men must endure when dealing with women. For example, when dealing with women from the South I should act chivalrously (e.g., hold out her chain, refer to her as "Ma'am," etc.) but with a woman from the East or West I should not. However, no matter where I am, unless the woman has a thick Southern accent I won't know which approach is appropriate; further, what if the woman is an 'enlightened' Southerner? Can any of you appreciate how confusing these double-standards, mixed-messages the general moving target vis-a-vis proper behavior of men towards women is in our modern society? For guys it's a lot simpler: Be nice to us but don't flirt and we usually get the message. Which brings me to my last point:

Third, judging from what I've read in this thread I think that a lot of women are misinterpreting men's behavior. I'm not saying that you're clueless, etc., (at least any more than a typical man), rather, it's like this: Just because we pay attention to you, are friendly, smile a lot, are nice, etc., doesn't mean we're hitting on you. Contrary to popular mythology, we men are not rule by our "little heads" (at least most of us) and we're not out to get in your pants just because you might look cute (or at least think you do). I beleive that many women think that they're a lot more attractive than they really are (to any given man) and that this is a major factor for them misinterpreting men's behavior. The reality is that men quite discerning re. their standards for beauty, etc., so it's likely that the man you're dealing with does not consider you not nearly as "hot" as you may think he does.

Hugo

Mr. Bad, you write:

" For example, when dealing with women from the South I should act chivalrously (e.g., hold out her chain..."

Sorry, that was too good to resist. Freudian slip by a MRA?

Mr. Bad

Hugo, Ouch! :)

Slip-up to be sure (you'll note several other typos in that rapidly-written post), but Freudian - naw. He delved in incest, which only guys like Farrell and the boys at Penthouse seem to be into... ;)

mythago

At the same time, IMO it's also just as important for women to realize the tremendous power their sexuality gives them and thus to maintain professionalism and not use it to gain advantage.

Having seen women try to "use their sexuality," I have to say that it doesn't give them nearly as much power as you think it does. Those women don't have men turn into lust-zombies. They get cracks made about them behind their back and aren't taken seriously. Yes, the guys will ogle the woman in the miniskirt, but they aren't going to give her a promotion or shrug when she comes to work late.

(Maybe it's just that I work with a smarter class of men, who have dicks and brains that are separately operational.)

Just because we pay attention to you, are friendly, smile a lot, are nice, etc., doesn't mean we're hitting on you.

When you treat us "more special" than your male colleagues, whether or not you're hitting on us, it's inappropriate. The issue isn't whether you're making passes at us. It's whether you feel the need to look at us as women first and colleagues second.

Mr. Bad

Hi mythago,

Believe it or not, we pay attention to, are friendly, smile a lot, etc., with our male colleagues too. Just because we do these things with you doesn't mean that you're special or even that we think you are.

You also said: "Yes, the guys will ogle the woman in the miniskirt, but they aren't going to give her a promotion or shrug when she comes to work late."

Sorry, but you're wrong. There are many, many cases where the woman gets the promotion or is excused for things others aren't based solely on "[her] wearing a miniskirt" or other sexuality-based characteristic or behavior. You hear about this not only from men, but other (non-miniskirt wearing) women in the workplace as well.

Amanda

Kirsty, I think women blame other women solely because as a culture, we tend to think women are the keepers of sex and men cannot control their urges. With that model in mind--that your man is an animal with no self-control--it's hard to get angry with him. Sort of like it's hard to get angry if you dog dashes across the street to get a piece of bacon held out by a stranger for him.

This attitude, needless to say, is insulting to men, but lots of men cling to it because it gives them an "out".

Believe you and me, if my man was stupid enough to sleep with another woman, my minor annoyance at her nerve would have nothing compared to the bringing down the house anger at his betrayal.

Caitriona

Can any of you appreciate how confusing these double-standards, mixed-messages the general moving target vis-a-vis proper behavior of men towards women is in our modern society?

Mr. Bad, I just had to laugh a bit when I read that. I work with international exchange students. These are kids who come from several different cultures, get placed with families here who are from several different American sub-cultures, and we all have to find a way to make it work for a year.

That's what frustrates me with this type of conversation. When we're looking at international relations, most of us expect that there are going to be cultural differences. But look at how this thread has gone. Each one of us posts our perceptions based upon the sub-culture in which we live, then some of us say, "That's not how it is!"

It's interesting to see people from a sub-culture different than mine telling me that the way I see things isn't right, or shouldn't be happening. OK, it's not right for the sub-culture in which *they* live. But it's perfectly alright, acceptable, and LIKED in the sub-culture in which I live.

It's kinda like, oh, say J. Lo. telling an Amish wife that she shouldn't be living the lifestyle she lives, because it's different than the lifestyle chosen by J. Lo. Anyone here see Amish in the City? I didn't, but what I heard about it was interesting. Who's to say which way of life is better for the particular individuals involved?

Mr. Bad

Hi Caitriona,

I hear you re. dealing with people from around the world. Given the culture I work in (i.e., a large Research I university), we get folks from every continent, and I'm here to tell you, sometimes getting protocol right is a real challenge. But "Amish in the City?!" I've never heard of that one! My wife loves "Sex in the City," so I know of the basic genre, but can't imagine what "AITC" might be like.

And FYI, FWIW: My family have been very close friends with a couple of Mennonite families, so while I don't have direct experience with Amish folks, I do have the ability to relate to some of the things that you say vis-a-vis your family and culture.

Just thought you'd appreciate knowing that bit of my personal history. :)

Lynn Gazis-Sax

Where on earth did you hear such a thing? I've lived in "the North" my entire life, and I've never heard of, nor been told by anyone, that "sir" and "ma'am" are insults.

My mileage varies, but just slightly. I grew up in NY, and have spent all my adult life in California (so I could also say I've lived in "the North" my entire life, if I can take enough poetic license to count these last few years in Southern California as still "the North"). And I also have never been told by anyone that "sir" and "ma'am" are insults. But I have seen where some women are so attached to thinking of themselves as young that they lament when people start addressing them as "ma'am," as if that suddenly made them (horrors!) crones. I assumed that was what Cait was thinking of. And I think it's silly. I'm too California informal to use "sir" and "ma'am" myself, but I've always taken them, for those who use them, to be normal forms of address for adults, not a comment on the grayness of my hair or the wrinkles in my skin.

But it's a silliness that doesn't have much to do with the matter treating women differently in a professional setting. Whenever I've gotten "ma'am" in a professional setting, it was from someone who would have used "sir" to a man in exactly the same circumstances. (Not so the one time I got "honey" and "sweetie" in a professional setting.)

mythago

OK, it's not right for the sub-culture in which *they* live. But it's perfectly alright, acceptable, and LIKED in the sub-culture in which I live

I'm not talking about your "sub-culture." I'm talking about in professional settings. I wouldn't dream of telling you that Texans use "ma'am" too much, any more than you would sniff at Californian adults expecting kids to call them by their first names.

But in a work or academic setting, it's unprofessional to make a point of singling out somebody because of their gender. If this were about race, we wouldn't be discussing whether or not certain "sub-cultures" make a big deal out of people with a particular skin color. Business manners and professional manners aren't the same, and shouldn't be, when you think about it.

Believe it or not, we pay attention to, are friendly, smile a lot, etc., with our male colleagues too.

As I'm sure you are perfectly aware, I'm not talking about general friendly behavior to all. I am, as I said, talking about "special" behavior that's clearly directed only at one sex. Believe it or not, most women don't think we're being hit on all the time.

There are many, many cases where the woman gets the promotion or is excused for things others aren't based solely on "[her] wearing a miniskirt" or other sexuality-based characteristic or behavior.

If you're going to ignore the rule that the plural of anecdote is not data, I can tell you easily that you're wrong, and there are many, many cases where the woman doesn't get the promotion and is treated like an idiot (even if she is as smart, or more so, than her non-miniskirted colleagues) because of the assumption that sexy = stupid, manipulative bitch. Again, maybe you live where men are somehow stupider, but I know of a few women in my professional circles who are convinced tight clothing will help them professionally, and none of them have any idea how badly they have crippled their careers.

Though I wonder, as an MRA who no doubt believes that sexual harassment lawsuits have approached the level of a national witch hunt, how you can then insist that sexy women get privileges at work? After all, the second that Ms. Miniskirt gets a promotion, wouldn't the non-miniskirted women whap the boss with a discrimination lawsuit? Wouldn't said boss be terrified of even admitting Ms. Miniskirt was female lest she sue him? (I mean, look at what happened to Larry Ellison.)

metamanda

"There are many, many cases where the woman gets the promotion or is excused for things others aren't based solely on "[her] wearing a miniskirt" or other sexuality-based characteristic or behavior. You hear about this not only from men, but other (non-miniskirt wearing) women in the workplace as well."

Maybe so, in some workplaces. In others, she might NOT get the promotion because that mini-skirt keeps her colleagues from taking her seriously as an intellectual. It probably depends a lot on what field she's in, the culture of the workplace, etc. Either way, that's kind of messed up.

Anyway... I guess I'm pretty lucky. I'm in grad school for computer science and I pretty much feel respected, even on days that I wear a skirt or (heaven forbid) makeup.

Kirsty

Mr. Bad, I think you're underestimating women's intelligence (again). Most of us know the difference between someone being friendly towards us and someone assessing us in a sexual way. For example, a co-worker who says good morning to me every day and asks me how my weekend went? Friendly. One who stops in his tracks when I walk in the door, looks me up, down, and up again, and then grins big and proceeds to conduct the rest of the conversation while staring at my breasts? If that constitutes friendliness where you come from then that must be a rather unique work environment you have.
Cute how you managed to work in the "you feminists aren't as sexy as you think you are" idea though.

Kirsty

Also, on the comment from Mr. Bad that metamanda was referring to, you hear about those situations all the time and yet nobody ever seems to be able to offer an actual, verifiable example. I'm beginning to think that these mini-skirt wearing corporate dynamos are secretely related to bigfoot, or perhaps the tooth fairy. In any environment I've ever worked wearing skimpy clothes is a guarantee that you'll never attain any rank higher than admin assistant or receptionist.

Caitriona

Where on earth did you hear such a thing? I've lived in "the North" my entire life, and I've never heard of, nor been told by anyone, that "sir" and "ma'am" are insults.


I've heard it from several people who moved down here from up north, and vice versa. When their children would transfer schools, there were all sorts of cultural misunderstandings. Kids who would move from southern schools to northern schools would get in trouble at school for calling their teachers "ma'am" or "sir." Kids who moved from northern schools to southern schools got in trouble for *not* calling their teachers "ma'am" or "sir."

And then, of course, there was the kid, my first year teaching in public school, who thought he'd bring his Chicago attitude into a small southern town. When he refused to put away his headphones (a huge no-no in small southern schools) and take his seat when the bell rang (even worse), the teacher approached him and told him he was expected to put away the headphones and have a seat. His reply was, "If a teacher talked to a student like that where I come from, the teacher would find his tires slashed at the end of the day." The teacher's reply: "This isn't Chicago. Down here, we know where you live." There weren't a lot of attitude problems from that young man the rest of the year. Of course, I heard through the grapevine that the attitude problem was the reason the parents had move their family down there.

Caitriona

But in a work or academic setting, it's unprofessional to make a point of singling out somebody because of their gender. If this were about race, we wouldn't be discussing whether or not certain "sub-cultures" make a big deal out of people with a particular skin color. Business manners and professional manners aren't the same, and shouldn't be, when you think about it.


A part of the difference in perspective is that I don't see opening a door or pulling a chair out as "making a point of singling out somebody because of their gender." There are places where people are raised for this to be a natural reaction - in personal, business, and professional arenas.

The Jerry Clowers story I mentioned is one where a feminist activist entered the room where Jerry was. Because there were no other seats available, he did as his mother had taught him and stood to allow the activist to have his seat. She proceeded to intentionally embarass him by refusing the seat and sitting on the floor.

I would never dream of embarassing a man in such a way. Neither would I embarass a man by insisting that he rise to give me his seat. The courtesy my mother and grandparents taught me insists that I don't do things to intentionally embarass another person, and causes me to be embarassed by the actions of those like the activists whom Jerry Clowers encountered.

monica

>>He told me that his wife (he was a newlywed) had met Deanna at a medieval colloquium and asked him never to be alone with her again.

Yikes! That sounds awful. I just cannot understand this. This is jealousy gone mad. And he was ok with that kind of request?
Well, then, my answer to "what can men do?" would be: run! away! fast!
Well, maybe try and bring it up and explain why it bothers you, before that.
Same advice for women in same situation, of course.
I guess this is a matter of different strokes for different folks, but I know I'd pack and leave if I'd been on the receiving end of that kind of controlling behaviour. I couldn't tolerate it. I couldn't do it to my partner and I sure couldn't take it from them. Friendship and freedom are things I rate far higher in life than anything else. A romantic relationship that came between me and that freedom and friendship is not one I'd be interested in in the first place. Nor would I want to impose conditions on anyone else for being with me.
Screwed up notions of gender roles are no excuse for treating your partner like a child who can't feel free to speak to whoever she or he likes. Playing into it as in, accepting it and adapting to all that competitive mentality that comes with it, is *not* a good way to live and not a good way to foster healthier behaviour between men and women (or between women and women, for that matter). IMHO, at least.

Mr. Bad

Hi Kirsty,

You said: "Mr. Bad, I think you're underestimating women's intelligence (again). Most of us know the difference between someone being friendly towards us and someone assessing us in a sexual way."

Or at least you think you know the difference. You seem to be implying that women have a special 6th sense that allows them to be mind-readers? I think not.

You give this example: "a co-worker who says good morning to me every day and asks me how my weekend went? Friendly. One who stops in his tracks when I walk in the door, looks me up, down, and up again, and then grins big and proceeds to conduct the rest of the conversation while staring at my breasts?"

Even these examples aren't so clear. In the first case, the guy could be feeling you out re. whether or not you have a regular bofriend, etc. In the second case, the guy might be staring at your boobs because (and I'm not saying you would necessarily do this, but) you're wearing an incredibly tacky, tight fitting-over-a-fat-body miniskirt dress ensemble that makes you look like a cheap hooker and he simply can't believe that you would dress so tastelessly at the office. This is referring to the case that metamanda was relating re. women who dress provocatively in the workplace not being taken seriously by their (male and female) co-workers. You seem to want it both ways - to acknowledge that such women as seen as ditzes by male and female co-workers but that men are clueless and shallow and thus only see them as sex objects.

Besides, whether you accept it or not, the vase majority of men know better that to stare at a woman's chest because in this age of sexual harassment hysteria they know it's an invitation to a sexual harassment charge, and legit or not such things are career killers. Men aren't stupid, at least no more than women are.

You said in the next thread: "Also, on the comment from Mr. Bad that metamanda was referring to, you hear about those situations all the time and yet nobody ever seems to be able to offer an actual, verifiable example.

Actually, I agree with much of metamanda wrote, and I believe that you'll find that there have been some successful lawsuits brought by women against male bosses who promoted "prettier" women over others. That's what I was referring to in one of my first follow-up posts. You can find these cases on Lexus/Nexus, however, since it's a private service I can't give you a link. Further, the phenomenon is more widespread than just the workplace and has been studied and reported in news media. I've read a number of reports on studies that have found that "beautiful people" are seen in a better light than others by strangers, and so those people treat the "beautiful people" better than others. You also see this in the classroom dynamic, where male teachers treat pretty girls better than others (male and female). I'm surprised that you haven't heard of this because it's been a topic of concern in feminist circles for quite some time. Issues relating to "relative beauty" fall into the ossession feminists (and other PC types) have with all of the various "-isms" they fret over.

And sorry to give you the bad news, but believe it or not, yes, in some cases you girls are not nearly as hot as you think you are. Deal with it. However, I never stated that this was the case exclusively with feminists because it's not. However, now that you brought up the issue, from my experience the phenomenon is a lot more common in the feminist cohort.

Lynn Gazis-Sax

A part of the difference in perspective is that I don't see opening a door or pulling a chair out as "making a point of singling out somebody because of their gender." There are places where people are raised for this to be a natural reaction - in personal, business, and professional arenas.

I really do think it's awkward to have gender-specific courtesies at work, especially if you're the only woman in the group, but I also assume most people are just doing what they assume is normal and polite, not deliberately trying to show the specialness of being a woman. Also, there are different levels of obtrusiveness. When guys hold the door for me, all I have to do is smile, thank them, and hold the door for them when I reach it first. And it doesn't matter whether they held the door because they'd do it for anyone who came later, or because I'm a woman.

Not so easy the situation (which I remember someone bringing up in another similar thread here) of an attorney who finds the opposing attorney, in open court, making a big deal of some gender specific courtesy of the holding a chair kind. Or a geologist, among other geologists carrying entirely manageable rock samples, who has to deal with a guy trying to swoop in and carry her every single bunch of rock samples for her.

She proceeded to intentionally embarass him by refusing the seat and sitting on the floor.

Was she really intentionally trying to embarrass him? Because I offer seats (but spare ones, not ones that would force me to stand) to male colleagues all the time, if they're standing or kneeling at a computer. And sometimes they take them, but other times they turn them down. It never would occur to me that they're doing it to embarrass me, I assume they have some other reason - like maybe actually sitting down says that whatever they're doing will take a long time.

Caitriona

Lynn,

In the particular instance related by Jerry Clowers, the woman was quite intentional in her actions, telling him (quite forcefully, he says) to sit back down, then when he told her that his mother taught him to always give a lady his chair, the woman refused and sat down on the floor. He refused to sit in the chair and continued to stand, so they were at a stand-off.

This is an incident that happened several years ago. I'd have to look for the date the recording was made, but I think it was late 70's, early 80's. And the related incident was far different than when someone doesn't take a seat simply because they prefer to stand, or prefer to sit on the floor. In those instances, a "thank you, but I feel like standing/sitting on the floor" is *much* more polite than outright refusal.

Jeff

Well, my take on such a scene would be that, once the offer was refused, to let the matter drop. The whole "my momma told me to be polite" bit is just passive-aggressive, as is laying all the blame for the situation on the woman for not being gracious enough in her refusal.

mythago

I've heard it from several people who moved down here from up north, and vice versa.

Again--I've lived in the North my entire life. The only offense I've ever heard anyone take to "ma'am" is (as somebody already pointed out) the occasional vain woman who thought it meant she was ready for the nursing home. I don't know how you get from a few anecdotes to the entire "North." You'd be pretty annoyed if I based my entire view of Texans on my one week in rural West Texas.

And sorry to give you the bad news, but believe it or not, yes, in some cases you girls are not nearly as hot as you think you are.

Now who's attempting to be a mind-reader? But I'm sure we're all terribly crushed that you don't think we're contenders for Playboy's upcoming "Girls of the Blogosphere" feature.

Amanda

Damn, we're not as hot as we think we are? And he said it was 'cause his Viagra prescription ran out. I knew it!

Uzzah

And sorry to give you the bad news, but believe it or not, yes, in some cases you girls are not nearly as hot as you think you are.

I've heard it from several people who moved down here from up north, and vice versa.

I've heard the same thing. Girls from up north are not as pretty as girls from the south.

Mindy

Hmmm...I've had male friends make passes at me & it's very uncomfortable. There was a time when I was probably thought of as "one of the guys", because I'm not attractive in the conventional sense. Most guys seem to prefer the girls with the big fake tits, tight halter tops, and brash demeanor. I'm petite, slim, small-busted, curvy-hipped, with long dark hair. I'm not blonde or buxom.

If I've ever had other women pissed off because their boyfriend/husband was flirting with me, I honestly wasn't aware of it. IMO, most women are competitive, as are men. Women (with the exception of lesbians or very religious women) like to look attractive...for themselves first, then to show off for other women to envy them, and then for men to admire. I'm able to discern when somebody is flirting with me, and when they really are just being nice. I will say that I'm not sure how comfortable I would feel with some woman spilling the details of her love life (or sex life) to my partner. If it's a woman I know & trust, no matter what she looks like, then it probably wouldn't affect me so much.


I mean, how does that affect him? So I completely see Amanda's point. It's not about being a jealous bitch or being territorial, it's about respect. I would never openly hit on somebody else's partner, or confide in him about my relationships, or be overly "friendly" with him. I would hate another woman for being brazen enough to flirt with my guy & think it's okay (and yes, that has happened. Many times). So it's only natural to expect that if you respect other people, they'll respect you. It doesn't always work that way, though.


Maybe if Amanda hadn't come home right then, that woman would've probably made a move. Maybe not...one should always give others the benefit of the doubt, after all. But the fact is that she didn't know this woman very well. They weren't friends & it's perfectly normal to wonder why a virtual stranger is casually sitting in your home sharing details of her private life with your boyfriend when you're not there. And it looks even more suspicious when she suddenly books out the door the minute you (the Jealous Mean Lover) show up. I believe trust is very important in any relationship & there are people who will for whatever reason try to sabotage other people's relationships for their own personal benefit.


My boyfriend of 6 years is an attractive guy, but he became even more attractive to other women the minute they noticed he was taken. His female friends are downright disrespectful with the constant flirting, knowing smiles, etc. I happen to be female and while I cannot speak for all women, I know how most women try to get male attention. I've done the throaty-voice, hair-twirling, hanging-onto-his-words bit too. A man can read another man's signals for being interested in a woman sexually. Ditto for women noticing if other women's eyes light up like a bitch in heat if her partner walks into the room. You don't have to be "pretty" to catch a man's attention. It helps, and men are wired to be visual physical creatures, but plenty of men have sex with unattractive women and flirt with them, too.


Yes, it is natural to feel funny around that pornstar-esque chick with her 36C's bouncing out of her low-cut top, but then why not also be threatened by any other woman? A woman can be flat-chested and still steal somebody's husband or boyfriend. You can be a size 18 and still flirt with some woman's partner, making her feel insecure. You can have Coke-bottle glasses & stringy hair, but still inspire jealousy in another woman simply because of how she perceives her partner's level of attraction/interest. It's natural to be jealous of the flighty girl who constantly smiles at him & throws her boobs around, but never underestimate the fact that everyone has a sexual side, no matter how they look. Sexuality plays a role in everyone's lives and although physical attraction is crucial in sexual behavior, it isn't everything. I know women who are butt-ugly with horrible personalities who still lure men away from their wives & girlfriends. My boyfriend likes to look at women...whether they're Plain Janes or not, it doesn't matter. Does it bother me? Oh yes. After all, I find him more handsome than a thousand Brad Pitts and I rarely find another man who can measure up to him in my eyes. I hate it when he looks at other women because I'm beautiful, too, in my own way and it's nice to be appreciated for qualities besides my intelligence & personality sometimes. Sorry if that sounded shallow. *smiles* It's just that I don't want to be viewed as an asexual freak compared to other women. I've always heard that I'm "nice" and "sweet" and "smart" and what have you, but sometimes a girl wants to be told that she's a beautiful sexy hot woman by her partner. Cute is for cheerleaders, kids, & puppies...not for a 24-year-old. It's good to hear that you're nice and cute and whatever, but in a relationship you want to have the other person's attention exclusively. People aren't property and relationships are a choice that we make, but from a female perspective it's no fun feeling like chopped liver because your partner is being hit on by all kinds of women, attractive or not.


Like a said, trust is a key element in any relationship. It's not always because other girls are prettier, unlike what Mr. Bad seemed to be implying. There's a vast difference between confidence & conceit. Yes, certain people are treated differently because of their appearance and it definitely impacts women more, but I've never once thought of myself as so hot that every guy hit on me. They hit on me often, but that has more to do with what's actually happening, not my false imagined perception or what I *THINK*. I'm aware that there are some extremely conceited people (male & female) who like to believe that they're drop-dead perfect and everyone wants them, but I assure you that I'm not one of those people and I still attract a lot of unwanted male attention...even in jeans & a flannel shirt.

Kirsty

Hey Amanda, isn't it a riot how determined Mr. Bad is to imply that we must all be ugly? Without having any idea what we actually look like?
By the way, on the day that I was referring to on which my co-worker was attempting to converse with my boobs, I was wearing jeans and a t-shirt (casual Friday). Amusing how quick MRAs are to insert their own wierd ideas about women into the situation, though. I have never actually seen these fat mini-dress wearing women who Mr Bad seems to think are to be found in offices all over America. Perhaps he's thinking of an Austin Powers movie gone horribly wrong?
I do agree that research suggests that pretty people make more money (and also that taller men make more money, by the way). However, it also found that the benefits of being attractive were more pronounced for men. So, if you're a man who's both good looking and tall you're all set. It didn't mention anything about dressing like Ally McBeal, though, which I still believe is a very bad way to advance one's career. They say that the best way to advance is to dress for the job you want, so that the people who have the ability to promote you can imagine you in a more senior position. In my experience executives tend to wear suits, not mini-skirts. Which isn't too surprising considering that most executives are men, and very few office dress codes would permit workers to come in in drag.

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