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February 23, 2005

Comments

Chrisvet

Hugo Baby!!

You're doing a great job for us over @ the Mancoat. Just being yourself is making thousands of men wake up to the fact they have lost their freedom! Looking @ you reminds them of EVERYTHING they do NOT want to become.

Keep it up buddy!
Vet

mythago

Thousands of men were in the dark until Hugo came along?

Yeah, I'm sold.

Verlch

The battle cry rings out...Hugo I challenge you to a duel....there Mr. Mommey....

Here is what feminism brings you, are you a socialist Hugo???

Who's payroll are you on Hugester???


"Women have their faults / men have only two: / everything they say / everything they do."
Popular Feminist Graffiti -
"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist"
Amazon Odyssey (p. 86) - Ti-Grace Atkinson
"(Rape) is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear"
Against Our Will p.6. - Susan Brownmiller
"We are taught, encouraged, moulded by and lulled into accepting a range of false notions about the family. As a source of some of our most profound experiences, it continues to be such an integral part of our emotional lives that it appears beyond criticism. Yet hiding from the truth of family life leaves women and children vulnerable."
- Canadian Panel on Violence Against Women
"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience."
Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students - Catherine Comin
"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be trained to do most things."
SCUM (Society For Cutting Up Men.) - Jilly Cooper
" How will the family unit be destroyed? ...[T]he demand alone will throw the whole ideology of the family into question, so that women can begin establishing a community of work with each other and we can fight collectively. Women will feel freer to leave their husbands and become economically independent, either through a job or welfare."
In "Female Liberation" - Roxanne Dunbarr
"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it "Her". Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination."
Pornography: Men Possessing Women - Andrea Dworkin
"The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an eternity of being used."
- Andrea Dworkin
"Men renounce whatever they have in common with women so as to experience no commonality with women; and what is left...is one piece of flesh a few inches long, the penis. The penis is the man; the man is human; the penis signifies humanity."
- Andrea Dworkin
"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."
Ice And Fire - Andrea Dworkin
"On the Left, on the Right, in the Middle; Authors, statesmen, thieves; so-called humanists and self-declared fascists; the adventurous and the contemplative, in every realm of male expression and action, violence is experienced and articulated as love and freedom."
Pornography: Men Possessing Women - Andrea Dworkin
"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies."
- Andrea Dworkin
"The cultural institutions which embody and enforce those interlocked aberrations - for instance, law, art, religion, nation-states, the family, tribe, or commune based on father-right - these institutions are real and they must be destroyed."
- Andrea Dworkin
"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership."
- Andrea Dworkin
"Ninety-five percent of women's experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive... women didn't go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo."
in The New York Times Magazine - Jodie Foster
"I was, in reality, bred by my parents as my father's concubine...What we take for granted as the stability of family life may well depend on the sexual slavery of our children. What's more, this is a cynical arrangement our institutions have colluded to conceal."
- Sylvia Fraser
"My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don't even need to shrug. I simply don't care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don't matter."
The Woman's Room - Marilyn French
"All patriarchists exalt the home and family as sacred, demanding it remain inviolate from prying eyes. Men want privacy for their violations of women... All women learn in childhood that women as a sex are men's prey."
The Woman's Room - Marilyn French
"All men are rapists and that's all they are."
Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.) - Marilyn French
"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE."
(Her emphasis) - Marilyn French
"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual aberrations...obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is part of a concerted campaign."
- Marilyn French
"The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together.... Whatever its ultimate meaning, the breakup of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.... No woman should have to deny herself any opportunities because of her special responsibilities to her children...."
"Functions of the Family," WOMEN: A Journal of Liberation, Fall, 1969 - Linda Gordon
"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release."
- Germaine Greer
"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference."
Rape: The All-American Crime - Susan Griffin
"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..."
- Sheila Jeffrys
"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it."
Former Congresswoman - Barbara Jordan
Catharine MacKinnon (...) maintains that "the private is a sphere of battery, marital rape and women's exploited labor." In this way, privacy and family are reduced to nothing more than aspects of the master plan, which is male domination. Democratic freedoms and the need to keep the state's nose out of our personal affairs are rendered meaningless. The real reason our society cherishes privacy is because men have invented it as an excuse to conceal their criminality. If people still insist that the traditional family is about love and mutual aid -- ideals which, admittedly, are sometimes betrayed -- they're "hiding from the truth." The family isn't a place where battery and marital rape sometimes happen but where little else apparently does. Sick men don't simply molest their daughters, they operate in league with their wives to "breed" them for that purpose.
The Princess at the Window; (in a critical explication of the Catharine MacKinnon, Gloria Steinhem et al tenets of misandric belief.) - Donna Laframboise
"There are no boundaries between affectionate sex and slavery in (the male) world. Distinctions between pleasure and danger are academic; the dirty-laundrylist of 'sex acts'...includes rape, foot binding, fellatio, intercourse, auto eroticism, incest, anal intercourse, use and production of pornography, cunnilingus, sexual harassment, and murder."
summarizing comment on the WAS document,
(A southern Women's Writing Collective: Women Against Sex.) - J.Levine
"Man-hating is everywhere, but everywhere it is twisted and transformed, disguised, tranquilized, and qualified. It coexists, never peacefully, with the love, desire, respect, and need women also feel for men. Always man-hating is shadowed by its milder, more diplomatic and doubtful twin, ambivalence."
- Judith Levine
"Men's sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can 'reach WITHIN women to fuck/construct us from the inside out.' Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women's own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, 'even if she does not feel forced.'"
(explicating comment profiling prevailing misandry.) - Judith Levine
"I feel what they feel: man-hating, that volatile admixture of pity, contempt, disgust, envy, alienation, fear, and rage at men. It is hatred not only for the anonymous man who makes sucking noises on the street, not only for the rapist or the judge who acquits him, but for what the Greeks called philo-aphilos, 'hate in love,' for the men women share their lives with -- husbands, lovers, friends, fathers, brothers, sons, coworkers."
My Enemy, My Love - Judith Levine
"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."
(Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.) - Catherine MacKinnon
"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."
quoted in Professing Feminism:
Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies - Catherine MacKinnon
"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."
- Catherine MacKinnon
"We can't destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage."
From Sisterhood Is Powerful, (ed), 1970, p. 537 - Robin Morgan
"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."
Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan
"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire."
Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan
"And let's put one lie to rest for all time: the lie that men are oppressed, too, by sexism -- the lie that there can be such a thing as 'men's liberation groups.' Oppression is something that one group of people commits against another group, specifically because of a 'threatening' characteristic shared by the latter group -- skin, color, sex or age, etc. The oppressors are indeed FUCKED UP by being masters, but those masters are not OPPRESSED. Any master has the alternative of divesting himself of sexism or racism -- the oppressed have no alternative -- for they have no power but to fight. In the long run, Women's Liberation will of course free men -- but in the short run it's going to cost men a lot of privilege, which no one gives up willingly or easily. Sexism is NOT the fault of women -- kill your fathers, not your mothers"
Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan
"We live, I am trying to say, in an epidemic of male violence against women."
- Katha Pollitt
"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."
SCUM Manifesto (Society for Cutting Up Men.) - Valerie Solana
"'To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."
Scum Manifesto - Valerie Solanas
"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men..."
One Woman, One Vote, Wheeler, p. 58 - Elizabeth Stanton
"All men are good for is fucking, and running over with a truck"
Statement made by A University of Maine Feminist Administrator, quoted by Richard Dinsmore, who brought a successful civil suit against the University in the amount of $600,000. - Unknown


www.razberry.com/raz/


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Feminism "Destroying happy families, one Divorce at a time!" --Verlch "The Anti-Feminist"

...he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 1 Corinthians 11 7-9

Punishment for Pregnant woman who are unmarried. --Stone Her to Death

First of all, men almost completely make up the “glass cellar”--Most Hazardous Jobs in the West

"I know where I belong." said Annika Sorenstam (Womans best Professional Golfer of the Mighty LPGA)

MRA's anytime, relatives by appointment only.

Are you Woman? Do you still Roar? Let's Raid the Panty Drawer!!!

Burkas are worn to keep a woman from being judged by her beauty.

Son of the Anti-Feminist Nation(SAFN)

Feminists walk to and fro like roaring hens seeking things to peck at.

A feminist Lies every 9 seconds --hijacked by Verlch!!!!

MA turning boys into men and men into men of renown.

Verlch

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gloria Steinem says, "By the year 2000 we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I forgot that one good buddy ole' pal...

Not only hugster do women war against man, they also appear to war against God Himself...

http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/jtest28/Biblical_Respose.html

Caitriona

Verich,

You're one truly sad person, dwelling on the writings of other sad people who are obviously in much pain from traumatic experiences they have experienced in life. I have never understood the tendency to displace ones anger in such a way that entire segments of the population become the target. It happens regularly, but I've never understood it.

You quote a few verses from the Bible in your effort to make your point, but you fail to include the instructions given there specifically to men on how to care for women. That is a common error, quite often committed by the type of men who give women the twisted view from which come the quotes you cited.

The view espoused in this quote, "Catharine MacKinnon (...) maintains that "the private is a sphere of battery, marital rape and women's exploited labor." In this way, privacy and family are reduced to nothing more than aspects of the master plan, which is male domination. Democratic freedoms and the need to keep the state's nose out of our personal affairs are rendered meaningless. The real reason our society cherishes privacy is because men have invented it as an excuse to conceal their criminality. If people still insist that the traditional family is about love and mutual aid -- ideals which, admittedly, are sometimes betrayed -- they're "hiding from the truth." The family isn't a place where battery and marital rape sometimes happen but where little else apparently does. Sick men don't simply molest their daughters, they operate in league with their wives to "breed" them for that purpose," shows the background of the person(s) making the quote.

Why would someone feel that people insisting that the traditional family isn't about love and mutual aid, but rather, is about abuse and about "breeding" daughters for the purpose of molestation? Because that is the worldview that person has because of the events that person has experienced in life. Why is it so difficult for so many to see the pain and suffering behind these words?

These quotes shouldn't make us angry. From these quotes, we should see the pain in the world, see the issues that MUST be dealt with, the abuse that occurs, the education that is so greatly needed so that the abuse will stop.

None of these things are ever cured by anger nor by force. These issues are resolved through love, patience, understanding, peace, and education. It takes years of hard work. Sometimes we feel that we will never make any progress, but we must keep working.

And then when we least expect it, we see change. That change may be in only one person. Or it may be in a family, a community. Eventually, it will be in a nation, then in the world. But it can only be accomplished one relationship at a time.

crella

'Because that is the worldview that person has because of the events that person has experienced in life.'

'These quotes shouldn't make us angry. From these quotes, we should see the pain in the world, see the issues that MUST be dealt with, the abuse that occurs, the education that is so greatly needed so that the abuse will stop.'

I am afraid I must disagree. Catherine McKinnon is a public figure and as such all her pain ,her issues and her 'view as shaped by her experience' take on weight not accorded the mumblings of private citizens. Her pronouncements of all heterosexual sex as rape etc are not repersentative of society as a whole,and like statements by you or I might be ignored or be thought of as maladjusted, but her position automatically gives import to all she utters, her quotes are viewed as being spoken by an authority figure,not as HER world view but as the way the world IS. She is in turn quoted by other researchers and feminists the world over.

Such a view of the world indicates maladjustment and traumatic experience. Why then, do so many accept it as Gospel? This is what is so dangerous about women who make statements like these. They are not seen as that person's 'experience' but as valid world views, which I find frightening. It would behoove her to separate her own personal traumas from the state of men and women at large. They are not one and the same.

Caitriona

I agree that her personal traumas are not the state of men and women at large. They are, however, traumas that occur far too often, in far too many homes. Although not the norm, these things happen far more often than most people are willing to admit. That is why education is absolutely NECESSARY.

I am currently working on a couples communication workshop for an upcoming church retreat. People often assume that such things aren't needed by Christian couples, but they are. People are shocked when an issue of abuse comes up in a church family, but it is something that is there, hidden away. Education on appropriate communication and on appropriate ways of dealing with problems is so absolutely necessary for everyone.

The research I've done as I am putting together this workshop has astounded even me about the previlance of abuse within families and congregations where one would assume it does not take place, even amongst the Anabaptists. None of us are immune. All of us must learn.

crella

"I agree that her personal traumas are not the state of men and women at large."

Do you agree also, then that her statements ,and that of others who are just as twisted (' A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, 'even if she does not feel forced.'etc) should not be presented as feminist dogma worthy of belief? Women going to these women's lectures,taking their classes, are taught these things as truth. We are 'raped every time we have sex', even if we consent to sex,we're too weak to actually be consenting--the patriarchy has us too frightened to resist. Does this sound like YOUR sex life? Are we too stupid to know what pleasure is?

Women are 'empowered' and 'strong' full of 'girl power',able to do any job, tackle any profession, go to war, OR we are weak cowed little things who have sex out of fear...which is it? You can't have it both ways. The 'too weak to consent' is an amazing statement for a feminist leader to make, I'm surprised there was no outrage at it. But no, women just bob their heads in agreement. THAT is weak. Not being able to confront and disagree with someone just because they've got clout. To swallow it all whole, without critical analysis.

Catherine McKinnon may have had a hard life, but I cannot forgive her for claiming that the men in her reality represent all men.For tarring all men with the same brush,and telling young women that that is the truth. Easier than to face her own demons perhaps, but irresponsible in the extreme. How anyone with a father,brother,grandfather or son they love can agree with her is beyond me.

Caitriona

I think her statements are tragic, as are all the others posted. But I do not think they are deserving of reciprocal hatred. That path only makes matters worse.

In order to effectively combat these teachings, one must understand where they come from. Then one has the capability of teaching about the underlying causes and giving women true strength in discerning such matters, seeing them for what they are. I believe in teaching girls to be strong women, not doormats for any injured party to tread upon. The quotes from Catherine McKinnon et al are just that - injured parties treading upon the naivete of girls and women who haven't been taught to be strong and wisely discerning.

crella

Reciprocal hatred is not what I am interested in, as much as women coming forth, older women, women in relationships, happily married women, coming forth and telling these young women the truth.

'of girls and women who haven't been taught to be strong and wisely discerning.'

It's 'our' fault then...our generation, if in fact our daughters are not wise enough to see these women for what they are. Women need to speak out against the likes of McKinnon. Why don't we? As long as our little pond doesn't get muddy, we feel safe?

'one must understand where they come from'

Now, this is where I have trouble. Such intense misandry and hatred must come from horrific abuse, or so goes the logic. If Ms. Mckinnon is ,say, a rape or incest victim, then such vituperous hatred is well directed **against those who wronged her** ,both male and female. Yes, female-because it is a rare case of incest where some woman in the family doesn't catch on. The reasons they don't speak up are myriad,but they too are accomplices(a fact conveniently brushed under the rug--after all hating men is the plan). Ms.McKinnon needs to direct her anger and hatred at those who wronged her, not men at large. What good does it do her to fan the flames of hatred for men who've never wronged her?

'teaching about the underlying causes '

I would like to know what they are...I would think that circumstances under which a person could become that hateful must be beyond the ken of most individual.

I'm sorry,but I'm very definitely not PC enough to forgive a spreader or spreaders of poisonous ideas, any more than I'd forgive someone putting poison in my water supply.

Caitriona

crella,

I'm definitely NOT PC. But I *do* believe in forgiveness, love, and education as the way to deal with issues, even ones as harsh as these. This can't be done without at least some basic understanding of the pain suffered by those carrying around so much anger.

You are right that women who have lived life's difficulties and come out on the other side need to teach our young girls. Women who've found the way to happy marriages are vital in teaching other women that it is possible, and teaching the lessons they've learned to make it happen. That is why I teach communication and personal responsibility. It is why I cite Christian counselors such as Dr. Ed Wheat.

I come at this from a different angle than many. I suffered abuse at the hands of my father and my first step-father. If not for the God-given strength of my mother and my maternal grandparents, there is no telling how my siblings and I would have turned out. But even with their love, patience, and guidance, I had to learn on my own to forgive these two men, as well as my first husband.

But I also had to learn to take responsibility for the consequences of the "coping skills" I had learned to use in response to the abuse I suffered. Those "coping skills" caused me to make my life more difficult. I had to learn new ways of communicating and of dealing with people and with life.

Had it not been for my wonderful grandfather and other male members of my mother's family, I may have been like Ms. McKinnon. Or, even worse, I may have been trapped in perpetual abuse, thinking that that was simply how the world works.

This is the background I bring to this discussion. It has taken years for me to learn the lessons needed to have a healthy, growing marriage. I am still struggling with the things I need to do to maintain and improve our relationship, just as my husband is still struggling with his end of the relationship. It is an ever-growing process.

Those of us who've learned the process have the responsibility to teach this to others. This evening, my husband and I were having a discussion about responsibility for one's actions with a young man who was in our area on a scholarship, but is now being sent home early because he chose to do things he knew were against the regs for his scholarship and educational plan. The young man continued to try to push the blame off on other people with things like, "Oh, she just doesn't like me. That's why she looked into everything I was doing."

It is my hope that he will spend his time going home contemplating some of the things we said to him about accepting personal responsibility for his choices and for the consequences of those choices. I hope he learns from it and chooses to do better next time he is given an opportunity such as the one he has thrown away. As I told him, if he can learn from this and improve himself because of the experience, then his time here is not a loss.

It's late, and I'm rambling. I should have been in bed hours ago, but we've been dealing with this issue. I'll try to make time to blog more about it tomorrow.

crella

I was talking about society at large, not just you, sorry for being unclear. It seems to me that in society today every viewpoint,no matter how off-the-wall is excused because 'that's how he/she feels' and I find it pretty frustrating...can't offend anyone ,even if they're an ax murderer ;-)

Thank you for your reply. I better understand your viewpoint. My point is,I guess, that no one is doing anything to stop the McKinnons of the world. She and women like her need help, not a pulpit. They do so much damage.

Caitriona

If you try to keep people like McKinnon from having a "pulpit" or a "soapbox," then you open the door for the rest of us having no place to voice our thoughts and feelings. Instead, we must teach people to think and to analyze what they hear before they believe and follow.

The dangers in not thinking for oneself don't just lie with the McKinnons. They also lie with the Koreshes and the neo-n**is and the far right-wing politicos who make moderates appear to be leftists and the far leftists who make moderates appear right-wing.

I used to teach at a private Christian school where my high school students could repeat back to you everything they'd heard from the far-right. Scarily, quite a few believed it. As a geometry teacher, I felt it was part of my job to teach them to think for themselves, to analyze why they believed what they believed. Hopefully, some of them walked away from my classes with the ability to question everything.

But we can't successfully teach our young ones to question everything if we don't do it ourselves. It must be a way of life. People don't want to live that challenge, it's too much hard work. So they follow whichever path seems easiest.

We must teach them to challenge themselves and others, and to enjoy the challenge.

Hugo

Folks, hate to be pedantic, but it's spelled MacKinnon, not Mckinnon.

The Birdwoman

I'm pretty sure Verlch used to troll the Bust magazine forums. Don't these trolls get about, eh?

crella

Oops! I should have scrolled up and checked the spelling...

Verlch

What's up ladies? And Hugo.

How can so many women be abused that are feminist? I think its part of their war tactic to label men as the problem as to why their were abused. Mostly I believe its not true. Real grrls that go through abuse do not talk about it at all. And usually in tears.

Patriarch Verlch

Ummm, is there any pro family women left, you sure should speak up.

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