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February 01, 2005

Comments

Pseudo-Adrienne

Rather, I'm determined to work harder on reaching out to and interacting with young men on the issue of sexual accountability.....It means teaching them that being "responsible" is about more than wearing a condom (though heaven knows, some of them need to start doing just that). It means teaching them that they are responsible for the outcome of any sexual activity in which they engage. At its bluntest, that's a message that says "don't ejaculate inside a woman until you are ready to raise the child that may follow."

Thank you for that Hugo. Although I strongly, but respectfully disagree with your "pro-life" position, I am glad to see that you're trying to reach out to young men and trying to make them understand their own accountability during the arena of sexual encounters.

One of the biggest problems I have with those who are anti-choice is that they never hold the guy in the situation accountable for anything. One-hundred percent of the blame is always on the woman or adolescent girl. But at least you get it and are trying to change some of the attitudes of young men. Good for you.

By the way, you that's not my blog on your blogroll. You got the wrong blog address. Just click on my name and you should be able to put up the right one. It's okay. Everyone makes mistakes :-)

Hugo Schwyzer

Whoops -- problem corrected; thanks!

NancyP

I too disagree with your "pro-life" position and have to agree with pseudoadrienne that it is a rarity to hear men held accountable by spokepersons or individuals in the "pro-life" movement. So I applaud your efforts to educate men to be responsible themselves and to promote responsibility in others.

Most "pro-choice" individuals are enthusiastic about making abortion safe, legal, and rare, and have been harping on the "supply side" of the issue - better education, better birth control accessibility, better communication between partners, more responsibility shown by men, and better prosecution and prevention of rape and abuse. People whose religious tradition does not exclude abortion don't wake up and say, what a fine day to have an abortion. They would prefer that the pregnancy was a healthy one, or that the condom didn't break, or that they hadn't been raped by an ex-husband. In an ideal society, it would be an option used mostly when serious and otherwise unmanageable health issues arose (cancer, heart failure).

Camassia

My friend Peter Nixon wrote recently about how abortion can also have emotional after-effects for men that they weren't expecting.

http://www.uscatholic.org/2005/02/cov0502.htm

djw

It's funny; when you went on abortion-blogging hiatus, I had feeling you were going to post something very much like this in 3-6 months. But not too surprising; most of the people I know who are have deeply felt and thoughtful pro-life positions don't focus their energy on prohibition either.

bmmg39

I am quite acquainted with FFL and have shared positive discourse with them.

One thing we need to do is to lose this whole contraceptive attitude we have that puts having a child on a par with contracting a venereal disease. Mind you, I'm not really talking about everyone who uses contraceptives, but rather the whole attitude. Even some who don't use contraceptives have the contraceptive attitudes when they harp about the world population total, or give teen moms and dads a hard time for their "crime."

Imagine if people always went into sex with the philosophy that, should a pregnancy arise, they'd welcome the new life with open arms, rather than cry about "what went wrong"....

Hugo Schwyzer

DDJW, you are a keen observer of character.

bmmg39, amen, amen, amen,amen.

NYMOM

"In fact, hiding in the shadows of the abortion rights movement are: irresponsible men; the prostitution traffic..."

Well I have to agree with you 1000% here although most men try to absolve themselves of any responsibility...

Like I often say men INVENTED these things, the pill, abortion, the sex trade...and they did it to have sex w/o responsibility...and I'm glad to see two men finally willing to admit it...you and the pope...

Hugo Schwyzer

Well, to be fair, the Pill was also very much wished for by the birth control movement, Margaret Sanger in particular. I'd take a more nuanced view. It has both empowered women and allowed men to evade responsibility simultaneously. Definitely a both/and, not an either/or...

And to compare me to his Holiness is an honor I don't deserve. ;-)

Keri

bmmg39: I have to strongly disagree; I think the most important step that people who want to reduce the number of abortions need to take is to push for better access to more effective contraception. It's never made any sense at all to me that the staunchest anti-abortion folks are also anti-contraception-- it's obvious that people are never going to limit their sexual activity to the point that they only have sex when they want to conceive, and they shouldn't be expected to, particularly if they do not subscribe to a religion that prohibits it.

Your final paragraph sounds nice in theory, but hopefully you recognize that not every sexually active woman is at a point in her life where an unplanned pregnancy is something she can (or wants to) deal with. Not all sexually active couples are financially and/or emotionally stable enough to adequately care for a child. Many women are in school or starting a career and aren't in a position to want to drop everything and have a baby. And some women don't *ever* want children. Now, no matter whether or not you think abortion should be an available option for these women if an unplanned pregnancy does occur, don't you think they should at least be able to take steps to avoid that possibility if they know they're not ready for it, without being condemned for it?

Pregnancy doesn't have to mean exactly the same thing in every situation for every woman. For some women, it's a beautiful miracle; for others, it can be a disaster. Suggesting that every woman should be prepared to "welcome new life with open arms" regardless of her situation and her own feelings about the subject is a really shallow analysis of the whole issue and completely disregards the complexity and seriousness of the choice to have or not have children.

Hugo Schwyzer

Keri, that's very well-put. At the same time, bmmmg and I (may) are coming from a stance that suggests that we do need to think more seriously about when and why we choose to have sexual intercourse. His "imagine" paragraph was less a prescription than a dream.

I am confident we would all love to see a world in which abortion was utterly unnecessary and unthinkable. You might like to get there through ever more reliable forms of birth control; others might like to get there through a radical shift in terms of sexual behavior, some (like me) might like a combination of these approaches.

Stephen

"But not too surprising; most of the people I know who are have deeply felt and thoughtful pro-life positions don't focus their energy on prohibition either."

I am a full participant in the Hugo Schwyzer fan club -- often giddily so. Still, I couldn't care less about Hugo's feelings on this matter. I do care about his reasoning and how his faith informs this decision. I know many, many thoughtfull (whatever that means) men and women who disagree with Hugo on this matter.

As I understand this post, men are to take responsibility for their part in a pregnancy but men are not to have a say in the outcome of the pregancy?

Help me out here. (Nancy P., La Luba, Amanda -- w/out assuming I'm a knuckle-dragging troglodyte please.)

Hugo Schwyzer

As you know, Steve (and you owe me a phone call), the feeling is mutual.

Yes, Steve, that is my contention. I don't think men ought to have veto rights over a woman's decision to get an abortion --unless we have made all abortions illegal, a subject about which I am (through great effort) taking no opinion.

Our time to exercise control is sometime prior to ejaculation. After that, and until the child is born, our decisions ought to be subordinate to those of the mother because, in fact, she carries the child inside of her. Once that child is born, both father and mother can begin to exercise full and equal responsibility for the new life they have created.

Steve, I want to end abortion. But until we have exercised far greater self-restraint over our own flesh, we cannot ask to exercise control over the flesh of another.

Pseudo-Adrienne

But until we have exercised far greater self-restraint over our own flesh, we cannot ask to exercise control over the flesh of another.

Thank you. A "pro-life" man who gets it.

FP

"It has both empowered women and allowed men to evade responsibility simultaneously. Definitely a both/and, not an either/or..."

Does it not allow women to evade responsibility as well? Or is the pill a natural function now?

mythago

How is using contraceptives evading responsibility? That's like saying that buckling your seat belt is 'evading responsibility,' because you might survive a car crash.

Hugo, as with others, I couldn't disagree more with your position on abortion, but I applaud your post here.

evelyn

Its so refreshing to find a man who is pro-life and means it. Rather than someone who is pro-life when it comes to a fetus in a woman's uterus, but is happy for men, women and children to be murdered (aka the so-called war on terror). If that seemed to harsh a comparison - it came from a conversation with an anti-abortionist.

Myself, I'm pro-choice, but I can respect a position like yours. One that demands actual responsibility from the men involved. AND a position that looks towards the childs future life. So many anti-abortion people I've met are also anti-welfare, anti-public-education, anti-environment - just about anti anything that will help the woman raise the child in a decent environment.

mythago

One problem I do have with the Glendon quote, Hugo, is that it still fixates on the idea that unwanted pregnancy happens only to women who are alone and frightened--read, young, single, and abandoned by the father. It hints uncomfortably of the 'pro-life' position that abortion doctors are the real villains and women merely poor misguided dupes. And it buys into the notion that of course every woman who is not "alone" or "frightened" or helpless doesn't get pregnant unless she wants to, and if she does anyway happily bears the child.

Rad Geek

FP: "Does it not allow women to evade responsibility as well? Or is the pill a natural function now?"

A heart attack is a "natural function". A defribillator is an artificial intervention that prevents cardiac arrest from taking its normal course, i.e., death. It doesn't follow from this that you are evading your responsibility to die.

Broadly speaking, "natural" is not a term with any intrinsic normative content whatsoever. Certainly not for human beings, anyway: invention is a part--perhaps the most distinctive part--of our nature.

NYMOM

"I think the most important step that people who want to reduce the number of abortions need to take is to push for better access to more effective contraception. It's never made any sense at all to me that the staunchest anti-abortion folks are also anti-contraception-- "

It makes sense if you realize that they are against contraception and abortion because they want to control womens' behavior and NOT allow us to have sex outside of the context of marriage and childbearing...

They are trying to put a stop to 'recreational sex' if you could call it that, although why you would I'll never know...I've had more fun reading a good book or blogging...

But it's the recreational aspect, they think is there, they are trying to take away from sex...

NYMOM

"Well, to be fair, the Pill was also very much wished for by the birth control movement, Margaret Sanger in particular."

Well to be fairer, wishing about something doesn't make it so...and men came up with ALL of these things, they claim to hate so much today...and THEY did it to have sex w/o responsibility...

Margeret Sanger did NOT think of having a birth control pill so that women could have one-night stands more frequently and casual sex and NOT get pregnant...she saw it in the context of married women using it so they could plan their families better...

I mean what is in sex w/o responsibility for women if we want to be honest about it? Nothing...absolutely nothing...it is men who benefit disportionately from these things...not women...

Just like the pill NOW that they are working on for men...is this for use by men in the context of a marriage to plan their families...No, not at all...it's another symptom of the male disease of irresponsibilty, as NOW men can have more sex and not have to worry if women use birth control or NOT, as men themselves will take the pill...

It's being touted as a way for them to avoid the 'crime' of paternity fraud and to NOT have to pay child support...

Margeret Sanger, in spite of what people say about her today, would be rolling in her grave hearing about this...

thisgirl

I mean what is in sex w/o responsibility for women if we want to be honest about it?

Pleasure? Sex for the sake of sex? Women can (and do) want that too.

Kameron Hurley

No time to read the comments, direct to post:

Hugo - I was talking with my buddy Jenn last night about the abortion debate; I'd run across a woman's site where she'd found my post about a US without Roe, and she said that every time abortion would come up in personal debates, she tried to tune it out "that's just politics" she'd say, "that's about those other women. Not me."

Not *me*.

And she realized, in fact, she had a *right* to be pissed off, because, in fact, all those men who made the laws *were* talking about *her.* They had their hands on her body, on what she was, and she was really, really, pissed off.

I respect your moral stance on abortion, your faith, and I'm also incredibly... What I felt when you said you were not going to take up a side of the debate, you were going to focus on men, honestly, what I felt was that - oh, thank you - one more man had taken his hands off me. And let me be.

It's an incredibly, incredibly good feeling, cause I think you're doing great work, and though I know you'll always morally disagree with abortion, I am... relieved to sort of see you step back away from it, and leave it to women and their bodies - and turn to men and work with them on their side of the issue.

Relief.

Obtestor

Although I strongly, but respectfully disagree with your "pro-life" position, I am glad to see that you're trying to reach out to young men and trying to make them understand their own accountability during the arena of sexual encounters.

What is male 'accountability' in the aftermath of consensual sexual activities with a female? It is whatever the female decides, not the male, so the accountability sliding scale is a scale derived from absolute power, as the slave (male) was accountable to the slave-owner (in our times the female).

Obtestor

Obtestor

So I applaud your efforts to educate men to be responsible themselves and to promote responsibility in others.

What is male responsibility when it comes to sex? Do we interrogate females to see if they are using birth control? What if the female lies so that she can become pregnant and what if the male doesn't want the child? Where is his choice?

Answer: He doesn't have a choice.

So all of this talk about 'educating men' is logic fallacy because men cannot prove nor disprove the fertility of the woman they are having sex with, nor do men have any say whatsoever in whether or not the female will keep or abort any baby conceived through the sexual act. To think otherwise is to wrongly demonize men.

Obtestor

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