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January 26, 2005

Comments

Wendryn

Some of us aren't angry & do appreciate what you do - we just may not be quite as loud about it. Please don't be discouraged.

--Wendryn

Kat

Unfortunately, when you take an intelligent stand on ANY issue, there are always those in the opposition who constantly want you to "prove" yourself. You only have to prove yourself to yourself, if that makes sense.

Keep up the good work. I'll beam you good thoughts.

*quietly leaves a few almonds for Matilde*

Trish Wilson

You're doing a great job Hugo, and it's obvious from the response you've described that a lot of people heard your points. That's why you're getting the e-mail you're getting. It can get to be a bit overwhelming (I know that very well). It's a great opportunity for you to speak out.

Ron O

Sending positive thoughts your way.

Ampersand
And I wonder about the spiritual energy that is created by having so many folks out there angry with or hostile towards me. I don't feel threatened, but it's almost as if I can feel the dislike and antipathy coming my way. I'm not saying I can't handle it, I can --it's just a little sobering to be on the receiving end of so much opprobrium.

I know exactly what you mean, Hugo - although I've never experienced it at the scale that you're currently experiencing it! You're a better man than I - after seeing the reaction you've gotten, I doubt I'd appear on Glenn's show even if invited (which is, I admit, not especially likely).

For what it's worth, I'm sending positive thoughts your way,too.

As for the Male Privilege Checklist I compiled (not created - many people created it), I think it's a useful tool for people who are already feminists or sympathetic to feminist analysis, because it articulates some of the specifics that are included in "male privilege." And it's useful to have it compiled and available so that there's no need for folks who'd like to see such a list to re-invent the wheel.

And I'm pleased that you've used it in your classroom; I hope it's been useful to you.

But I don't think it's a useful tool for persuading those who are already anti-feminist to change their minds, since it doesn't include any arguments or evidence. (I could provide arguments or evidence for many of the items, but not only would doing that be a huge tast, it would make the list itself impossibly unwieldy to read).

OF course, I'm not sure that arguments and evidence are useful tools for changing people's minds, either, but... (Amp fades out, mumbling.)

Xrlq

The "male privilege" checklist is a long list of feminist articles of faith. As such, it's a very handy tool for feminists intent on convincing themselves that they're right, but I'm not sure it's good for anything else.

The Gonzman

**You only have to prove yourself to yourself, if that makes sense. **

While this is a warm and fuzzy platitude, in a world where intellectual rigor holds any value it's profoundly untrue.

Jeff JP

The "male privilege" checklist is a long list of feminist articles of faith. As such, it's a very handy tool for feminists intent on convincing themselves that they're right, but I'm not sure it's good for anything else.

It might be good for an occasional laugh, given it's "I am victim, hear me roar!" mentality.

Ampersand

Yes, I as a male feminist compiled that list thinking "I'm such a victim." That makes lots of sense.

Xrlq

No, but I do have to wonder whether you seriously expected anyone who wasn't already a hard-core feminist to believe that stuff. It's a bit like "proving" Christianity by pointing out Bible verses.

Ampersand

Xrlq, as I already said, it's not intended as a "proof" for non-feminists. I think it's a useful tool for intra-feminist thought and discussion, and it's (I've been told) a useful tool for students who are sincerely trying to understand feminist thought. That's good enough for me; it doesn't have to be anything more.

Now, I'm more than willing to write and talk to non-feminists and even anti-feminists in ways that are directed towards them. But not every single thing I write can or should be directed towards anti-feminists.

NYMOM

You're right Hugo...they are threatening you, it's not your imagination...

I very frequently get hate emails and death threats from those idiots too...

See, that's what I mean when I say that tv making men look like kindly, bumbling idiots is doing them a favor...if tv portrays men like many of them really ACT, even more people would hate them...

Sorry...you seem like a rare guy but now that you've captured the attention of these nuts who knows where it will end...


bmmg39

"See, that's what I mean when I say that tv making men look like kindly, bumbling idiots is doing them a favor...if tv portrays men like many of them really ACT, even more people would hate them..."

I have never sent (and likely will never send) you an e-mail. But I will suggest to you that people with hateful attitudes such as yours tend to get a lot of hateful e-mails in return.

craichead

"See, that's what I mean when I say that tv making men look like kindly, bumbling idiots is doing them a favor...if tv portrays men like many of them really ACT, even more people would hate them..."

Oh yeah? Well MY mom says I'm a GOOD boy -- and handsome too!!

bmmg39

Not only are most of the "checks" on the so-called "male privilege checklist" not proven, but they're out-and-out distortions in and of themselves. I hope I have the time to debunk most of these before I have to work with a student in a couple hours from now:

"The Male Privilege Checklist
1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed."

I shall assume we all agree that all people should have the same fair chance to get that job.
As I'll be explaining several times, many of the items on Barry's list are the direct result of men being pressured by society -- and, in many cases, by their wives -- to be the sole or primary breadwinner. Furthermore, our social climate is designed so that any woman can bring down a man's career by ledging an accusation of sexual harassment, whether justified or not, and so many men are scared to death to hire women. It's not right, I'll grant you, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum.

"2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true."

If we would do away with the practice of hiring ANYONE based on gender, race, etc. -- co-workers would have NO grounds on which to believe that.

"4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities."

Oh, and people aren't constantly searching for reasons to find the male gender to be inferior to the female one?

"5. The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible."

Wrong. Men suffer from a stereotype of being lascivious ogres who'd welcome any sort of sexual attention, and so when a woman gives a man UNwelcome sexual attention, he's believed to have something wrong with him if he doesn't appreciate it. Furthermore, he's expected to be a gentleman and to endure anything, no matter how distasteful he may find it. For both of these reasons, female-on-male cases of sexual harassment is grossly underreported.

"7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as to be negligible."

Lower, perhaps. Certainly not "negligible," one of your favored words. A woman can rape a man just as a man can rape a woman. The problem is that rape of males is seen as a comic device. Our society laughs at the prospect of a man being raped in prison by another man and certainly doesn't take male victims of female rape seriously, either.

"8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces."

HA! My parents STILL fret if I'm going into the city for the evening by myself, and I'm not female.

"9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question."

No, you'll just be called a gigolo with a fear of commitment...

"10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question."

No, you'll just be called a "deadbeat dad." Of course, what am I saying? You might be called that even if you've been unfairly shut out from your children's lives and made to pay amounts that are fiscally impossible for you.

"11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent."

You must be joking. This was a joke, right? Stay-at-home dads are looked down upon by society. Men who accompany their children to the playground during the week say that the moms there often figure they're child molestors.

"So, what do you do for a living?"
"I'm a stay-at-home dad."
"Oh, sure, but I mean: what do you do for a LIVING?"

Our society looks down upon dads, treats them as fools who can't even make a peanut butter sandwich, and therefore is astounded when upon learning that fathers are actually capable.

"12. If I have children and pursue a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home."

No, they'll say you're selfish if you DO want to stay at home. People applaud a woman who gets that career and then applaud again when she decides she's had enough of the rat race and just wants to be a full-time mom. Then, the father realizes that he's had enough, too, and wants to spend more quality time with his kids as well, and those same people tell him, "Like HELL you will, buster! You'd better NOT quit! In fact, you had better work harder than you've ever worked before! You have a wife and kids now and you'd better give them the best of everything! Work yourself (literally) to death! They want a swimming pool!"

"13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press."

Paging Bernard Kerik, paging Bernard Kerik...

"14. Chances are my elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more likely this is to be true."

So do male voters grossly outweigh female ones? Did I miss something?

"16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.
17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male heroes were the default."

LOAD. OF. CRAP. Our boys have been abandoned and destroyed by a system that foolishly believes that one can only raise the self-esteem level of girls by lowering that of boys. (There's your zero-sum game, Ampersand.) Boys (like men) are depicted as coarse, stupid, and perfectly deserving of abuse at the hands of girls and women. (Remember the t-shirt: BOYS ARE STUPID; THROW ROCKS AT THEM?) Those who design such t-shirts/bumper stickers/pins/keychains/greeting cards swear they'd NEVER say such things about girls and women, you understand. Only boys and men are considered to be safe targets.

"18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often." See 16/17.

"19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones."

I keep reading here that men shouldn't blame women or feminists for all of their problems, and yet I keep sensing this belief that all female problems should be blamed on males. Which is it?

"20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception."

Yes, usually depicted as idiots who'd electrocute themselves if left alone from women for one minute...

"21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex."

Again, men are depicted as the foolish, childish, wasteful ones.

"22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex."

Men pay more on average for auto insurance than women do, remember? I'm happy that the "women can't drive" stereotype is going by the wayside, but sad to see all the negative stereotypes of men as strong as ever.

"23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial."

Both men and women can do this.

"24. If I have sex with a lot of people, it won’t make me an object of contempt or derision."

In some cases, it will. And males suffer equally from the "men love sex; women just want love" stereotype: you should see the things people have said about me because I'm 32 and have never been sexually active.

"25. There are value-neutral clothing choices available to me; it is possible for me to choose clothing that doesn’t send any particular message to the world."

If a woman wears slacks to work, and a man wears a dress to work, who will receive more of the grief. Again, this is because we sexualize women's dress and bodies moreso than men's, but it affects both genders in the end, and I'm not sure you realize that.

"26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time."

Women dress expensively to impress other women, too. How many husbands have told their wives, "You look FINE! C'mon, let's go! We're late!"

"28. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore."

It's considrered okay for commercials to show women fantasize about ditching their ugly men for handsome Romeos. We don't see the reverse at all.

"29. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch."

I agree with your point; now will you agree with mine? Men are told that they should tip their caps to women and not disagree with them. It's just not "chivalrous."

"30. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)"

It's seen as a special-interest issue because people aren't aware of the fact that there are about as many male victims of domestic violence as there are female ones.

"31. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he."

So are the negative words in our language. "Gunman," for example. All the baddies in those shoot-em-up arcade games are men, ever notice that? Are women going to demand to be shot more in video games?

"34. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon."

No, because (again) you'll be expected to be the sole or primary breadwinner. Just about every stay-at-home mom has a work-in-the-office husband who doesn't get as much time to see his kids grow up.

"37. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks."

Which person is expected to do most of the outdoor work? Which person is expected to investigate suspicious noises downstairs in the middle of the night?

"38. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing."

Parents should share the out-of-the-home work, the outdoor work, and the household chores. You keep missing the point that men are the ones slaving away at the office. I'm not diminishing the tedious, exhausting work that homemakers do. Will you acknowledge that paying jobs aren't exactly paradise?

"40. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are much rarer."

I agree, but men are the ones being slapped, punched, and hurt in the groin (which is aggravated sexual assault, make no mistake). What if there were a proposed trade? For ten years, men would be the ones half-naked in advertising, while it would be "okay" in teeveeland to show men slap, punch, and kick women in the private area. Do you think we'd have a trade? Didn't think so.

"42. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover."

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.
Women initiate domestic violence against men approximately as often as the reverse occurs, according to 155 studies and reviews worldwide:
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

It's not that people can't believe that women hurt men; it's the ridiculous belief that women hurting men doesn't qualify as domestic abuse, or that larger people somehow have less of a right to be abused.

"43. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege."

Circular argument. Again, it's like saying, "So, do you admit that you deny beating your kids?"

Xrlq
Now, I'm more than willing to write and talk to non-feminists and even anti-feminists in ways that are directed towards them. But not every single thing I write can or should be directed towards anti-feminists.

Fair enough, but this "checklist" reads as though it were directed at least in part towards those who aren't necessarily confirmed feminists already (e.g., anyone with a remotely open mind). Otherwise, what on earth good is it? All it does is confirm prejudices that certain people already have!

NYMOM

"I have never sent (and likely will never send) you an e-mail."

Good.

"But I will suggest to you that people with hateful attitudes such as yours tend to get a lot of hateful e-mails in return."

Why is it hateful to tell the truth...Your buddies in the media PROTECT you by using these propaganda tools to make MEN look better then you really are...

In the 70s and 80s, while you were abandoning your families at an unprecedented rate, our TV screen was filled with shows like the Brady Bunch and the Partridge Family and dozens of others painting you all as these wise and wonderful patriarchal heads of families...

NOW, when many mothers are engaged in (and losing) custody battles in these ongoing custody wars men have initiated and parental abductions are skyrocketing (I think they number about 350,000 annually now), suddenly TV and magazines have starting painting men as these harmless, puppydog-like, bumbling, but kindly fathers...

It called a propaganda campaign...that's what those shows and commercials are a part of...

So you all have nothing to complain about...

bmmg39

"In the 70s and 80s, while you were abandoning your families at an unprecedented rate, our TV screen was filled with shows like the Brady Bunch and the Partridge Family and dozens of others painting you all as these wise and wonderful patriarchal heads of families...
NOW, when many mothers are engaged in (and losing) custody battles in these ongoing custody wars men have initiated and parental abductions are skyrocketing (I think they number about 350,000 annually now), suddenly TV and magazines have starting painting men as these harmless, puppydog-like, bumbling, but kindly fathers...
It called a propaganda campaign..."

I agree: the lies and garbage you post here most certainly ARE a propaganda campaign.


stanton

NYMOM: My goodness, you are angry at men aren't you? Did a man do something terrible to you? Why else would you believe that the "kindly, bumbling, fool" depictions of men are complimentary, sugarcoating the awful truth about them? From what I have seen, you appear to have bought into all of the very worst stereotypes about men. A lot of misandry is subtle, but it seems to me that you feel the hating of men is proper and well-deserved. Is this correct?

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act"
-- Robin Morgan, editor of MS magazine

Evilman

The Myth of Male Privilege Checklist

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing aginst female applicants, is skewed in my favor. As long as the job applied for is dangerous, requires long hours, and shortens my expected life span.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex -men never get a job because of their sex. Men must rely on their competence.

3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex. Men never get promoted because of their sex. Men are promoted based on their competence.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure that this will be seen as a black mark against me as an individual.

5. The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job would be the same as a woman, if women were held to the same standard as men.

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are that her performance will be given bonus points based on her sex.

7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as to be negligible. If I can't stay out of jail, my chances are being raped are much higher than any other segment of the population. Unlike female rape victims, few will care.

8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces. Unfortunately, as a male I am much more likely to be the victim of violence. I wish someone had taught me to fear walking alone after dark in public spaces.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question, but you can be sure that my sperm count will be called into question.

10. If I have children and work my butt off to provide for them, I can be sure that my value as a parent will be ignored, while mom's work inside the home will be called primary.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I'll be criticized for not working my butt off to provide for them.

12. If I have children and pursue a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home. Instead, I will have to accept my secondary bond with my children.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press, but ultimately, life is about family, so I will personally suffer.

14. Chances are my elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more likely this is to be true. Ironically, my sex values women above men. The laws and policies they enact overwhelmingly grant privilege to women.

15. I can be somewhat sure that if I ask to see “the person in charge,” I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be. When I see the person in charge, by virtue of my sex, I am more likely to be treated harshly. The person in charge has little to fear from my sex since public policy offers no protection for men.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. I was also more likely to be abused, yelled at, and held to a higher level of responsibility.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male heroes were the default. That is if you consider athletes and warriors to be heroes. For those that find heroes to be defined by their inner goodness, I would find an almost infinite variety of heroes of the female sex, while my sex will be represented by incompetent fools.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. I am also more likely to be put on Ritalin for rasing my hand so much. I'm more likely to be disciplined. I'm more likely to be placed in special education programs. I'm almost guaranteed to be taught by the sex that does not understand the manner in which my sex functions and learns.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones. As a man, I can only blame myself when my day, year or week goes badly. I can be sure that my failure will not be excused.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception. Very often they are seeking clemency, being chased at high speeds or being blamed for one thing or the other.

21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex. No excuses for my sex. My financial failures will be my burden alone.

22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex, and I can be sure that my sex will make me more likely to be penalized for my careless driving. My sex is rarely the beneficiary of the chivalrous.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial. As I speak, I must be very careful. My sex is not allowed to say anything that may be offensive to anyone other than my own sex.

24. If I have sex with a lot of people, it won’t make me an object of contempt or derision. Should my sexual promiscuity lead to pregnancy, I can be sure that I will have no choice but to be fully responsible for the choices of the other sex.

25. There are value-neutral clothing choices available to me; it is possible for me to choose clothing that doesn’t send any particular message to the world. Unless I wear torn jeans and ripped shirts. Then I will be seen as a bum or a drug addict.

26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time. My sex has little regard or time for primping. My sex is expected to on time and ready to go at a minute's notice. No excuses.

27. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. Of course, if I don't do my homework, then I can expect to meet the same fate of any person that does not put forth the effort to make the best deal possible. Car salespeople work on commission and only those willing to educate themselves can avoid paying a premium for ignorance.

28. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore. Of course, with prostitution illegal in most places, I should resign myself to being asexual. I can not be guaranteed unlimited sexual opportunities merely because of my sex.

29. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch. If I am too loud or too aggressive, I should anticipate spending time behind bars with greatly increased chances of being an ignored rape victim. The other sex may face disparaging characterizations, but no other consequences.

30. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.) Should I seek a restraining order to protect myself from vioence, I have no chance of getting one. Protecting my sex from violence is of little interest to anyone. No excuses are made for the violence perpetrated by my sex. Men who commit violence are rarely defended. Women who commit violence are quite often forgiven as victims.

31. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he, garbageman, conman, strawman. I can confident that I will not see language confer love or affection by virtue of my sex.

32. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is. For many, I am incompetent every day of the month.

33. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if i don’t change my name. If I do not marry, my children's names are subject to the whims of their mother. If she is vengeful, I will not be recognized as a parent in any manner except for the garnishment of my wages.

34. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon. Employers recognize that they have me under their thumb regardless of my home life. I will not receive time off to bond with my infant children. I will not readily be allowed to job share. My sex has only one option...work.

35. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is usually pictured as being male. Because of this, most religions, like most governments, will not create excuses for my personal failings. I will be held accountable.

36. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me. The subservient wife and children will not be responsible for ensuring that we eat each day. They will spend their days interacting with family. I will spend my days missing my family and laboring for them.

37. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. While she is spending more time doing housework, I will be engaged in work unrelated to my family other than providing the essentials of life. I can be sure that my work will be more physically demanding. When our work inside and outside the home is counted, I will most likely work more hours each week than my wife or live-in girlfriend. I can be sure that the media will only report the hours worked inside the home. She will be pitied. I will be scorned.

38. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing. Chances are that I will be forced to play bad cop to her good cop. Her relationship with the children will be seen as loving. My role will be seen as unnecessary. While she is childrearing, I will be missing my family and shortening my lifespan in a stressful job.

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers. As the husband or boyfriend, I will only have to sacrifice time with my children. I lose.

40. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are much rarer. The scantily-clad women will not be held responsible for demeaning women...I will be held responsible if I should look at these images.

41. I am not expected to spend my entire life 20-40 pounds underweight. My entire life will be 5 years shorter than that of the slender and healthy sex.

42. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. This is only true if I fall for the propaganda that violence is a result of the patriarchy. If I lived in reality, I would understand that as a male child, I am much more likely to be the victim of violence and neglect at the hands of my mother. Violence against me as a child in my mother's home will not be considered domestic violence for reporting purposes.

43. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege. Although I am completely aware of my male responsibilities.

NYMOM

"A lot of misandry is subtle, but it seems to me that you feel the hating of men is proper and well-deserved. Is this correct?"

No...but I feel it's necessary to respond and correct the historic record when you and others keep coming up with these lies about how you are painted in the media, for instance...

Or try to paint yourselves as the victims of discrimination...

Or try to blame the destruction of marriage as the work of feminists...when in fact men have been trying to wiggle out of marriage since the time of Rome...I mean Augustus Caesar was making laws at one time to force men into marrying, even threatening to send single men into the legions stationed at the frontiers of the empire...

Were there any feminists around undermining marriage under him? I doubt it...

OR trying to blame mothers for male abandonment of their children, which has been going on forever as well.

The record needs to be made clear that these and many of the other things you say are lies and attempts to blame others for the historic bad behavior of men...

AND that's what I object to...

Work on making yourselves better men...not trying to blame everybody else for everything you do and have done in the past...


NYMOM

Thank you evilman for that looooong, dreary and incredibly boring, yet at the same time strangely righteous checklist you posted...

Yawn, it's late, I'm going to bed...

Evilman

No problem NY. Since I had to plod my way through the garbage that was the original checklist, I feel the the tit for tat is deserved. Nightie - night.

Talking in Circles

"Thank you evilman for that looooong, dreary and incredibly boring, yet at the same time strangely righteous checklist you posted...

Yawn, it's late, I'm going to bed..." NYMOM

You are reaching new heights of self parody. Your comment would make a great self styled eulogy.
HEHEHEHEHeeeeelarious.

napWoomma

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