Sturdy Oaks and many sides to consider

A big thank-you to all of those who e-mailed messages of support to me.  I'll try and respond to each one personally as soon as I can.

One of the rules of masculinity I grew up with, was, to borrow from the sociologists Brannon and David, to be a "sturdy oak."  A sturdy oak doesn't show pain, a sturdy oak doesn't complain, a sturdy oak endures in silence.  To say that a picture, posted on the web with comments that insinuated an unnatural attachment to children (pedophilia was suggested in the Stand Your Ground forum), was hurtful --that's not being a sturdy oak.  The sturdy oak ignores the insults, sloughs them off, and if he does respond, he ought to respond in anger -- because for all too many American men, anger is the only acceptable emotional reaction to injury.

I didn't feel like being a sturdy oak yesterday. It needed to be okay that I was hurt, even if the provocation seemed slight to some.

In the great scheme of things, it was a small injury indeed.  In order to enter into any kind of public debate, one has to have a bit of a thick skin.   I'm used to nasty things appearing on websites like Rate my Professors or in in-class student evaluations.  Mind you, like so many folks, I tend to pay less attention to the effusive and complimentary majority than to the angry and hostile minority!  In a class of forty students, three negative reviews occupy my mind more than thirty-seven glowing ones.  That's a human failing, and one I need to work on.  The world doesn't revolve around me,or the ultimately petty injustices I encounter.

Yesterday, my skin wasn't thick enough and I didn't feel like pretending that it was.

More will come on men's issues. I'm looking forward to writing more, reading more, and listening more.  Though I've encountered a lot of ugliness, I've also seen another side of the men's rights movement this week. I've "met" men in cyberspace who disagreed with me, but were willing to engage in civil discussion.   That's been gratifying and enlightening.  I look forward to spirited but ultimately polite exchanges with men and women on all sides of contemporary gender issues.

On Sunday, after Glenn's radio show, he and I agreed on something: we both succumb, from time to time, to the temptation to pretend that there are only two sides to these issues.  (Hence the title of Glenn's show!)  But in reality, most of us know that on  issues as complex and multi-faceted as those surrounding sexuality and gender, there are more like 30, or 80, "sides".  AM talk radio is not a medium given to exploring subtle nuances and differences.  But blogging ought to be such a medium, and I am resolving to work harder to escape the dualistic thinking that has characterized some  of my writing on this issue of late.

Comments

[jp]

I personally am amazed and delighted at the support that you're getting in the blogworld, and deservedly so. Usually I would go take at look at what the 'other side' is saying--the slander and the like--but in this case it's fairly plain to see that they're not doing anything near intellectual debate. Personal attacks and non sequiters are pretty boring, in the end.

It's kind of like how Bush Jr. looked during the first presidential debate last year--those people just don't get that they might be wrong, and they get all bent out of shape when somebody suggests that they might be. Whereas you--as noted in your response to my somewhat direct comments recently--try your best to not get bent out of shape, try your best to respond intelligently, and with some courtesy. You'll win every time, in the end.

[djw]

Watch out for the good cop/bad cop game. After dealing with people who, to take one recent example in comments here, embrace Godwin's law with open arms and suggest that opposing men's violence against women is the equivilent of supporting Jim Crow, all the while tossing around various insults and ad hominems, a somewhat polite individual who makes slightly less insane arguments will seem like a welcome change, especially to those of us who crave real dialogue. But a sensible temperament doesn't necessarily imply a willingness to debate in good faith.

Anyway, since I don't think I've offered it yet, please accept my thanks for the work you're doing. I wouldn't have the patience for it, myself, and I'm very glad you do.

[Jonathan Dresner]

Strong oaks are not steel pillars. They may be injured. But they also heal.

[zuzu]

There's an oak/willow saying, isn't there?

[The Gonzman]

If you wish to know where one gets the idea that feminism is the enemy of men, I have a few clues.

When I open the local phone book here, the two columns of things that start out "Women's ...." is staggeringly more than the rough handful that start out "Men's ...."

Any mention of "Men's Issues" is met from *YOUR* side with plaintive whines of "Can't this be a HUMAN issue?" I've tossed this back to feminists - and still do - just to see how philosophically consistant that sentiment is. Any bets on the reception I get to it?

When I tried to start a Men's shelter in southern Indiana many years ago, I sought no funds, I was working on my own dime, and donations. I was threatened by the sheriff, rezoned, and eventually told by contractors that "They needed to do business with the county" and couldn't afford to help me. All led by card-carrying members of the Indiana NOW. And the local papers, of course, felt such things were not newsworthy.

From where I sit, Doc, we have Women's Department this, Women's Commission That, Women's Bureau the Other. Want to know how far I have to go to find a MEN'S commission from here in southern Indiana?

Maine.

Not to be flip, Doctor H, but you are just going to have to excuse me if I observe that there are champions and help for women aplenty running around.

And given the hostility I've been on the receiving end of vis-a-vis dealing with "The Establishment" on the concerns of men, all of it instigated by and egged on by the mainstream feminist groups, I think it might cause someone to scratch their chin and not be amazed when I consider feminism my mortal enemy - after all, they obviously consider me to be theirs.

If that's not the lesson your side wants me to learn, I don't know what to tell you. That sure as hell is the lesson I have been taught.

[Harry]

Hugo: You wrote ...

"One of the rules of masculinity I grew up with, was, to borrow from the sociologists Brannon and David, to be a "sturdy oak." A sturdy oak doesn't show pain, a sturdy oak doesn't complain, a sturdy oak endures in silence."

In other words, you admit to being indoctrinated with the view that you should suppress and oppress **yourself** - because you are a man.

Slaves are told to do this Hugo.

Not their oppressors.

Women, on the other hand, are daily urged to do the very opposite - to complain, to accuse, to prosecute etc.

It isn't equality that feminists are seeking. It is men being told to shut up and let women walk all over them.

Besides which, equality will NEVER be achieved.

NEVER!

http://www.angryharry.com/esEqualityNotAchievable.htm

Best wishes

Harry

[jp]

Wow. Where to begin.

Harry, just because a man admits to be socially trained in a way he doesn't like doesn't entail ANY of your conclusions.

[Harry]

Great insights JP!

Amazing logic and well-constructed arguments.

All these things in just one short sentence!

How **do** you do it?

[Aegis]

Harry: unfortunately, your position is just as off base as Hugo's. Statements like this are just as exaggerated as many feminist claims:

"Slaves are told to do this Hugo.

Not their oppressors.

Women, on the other hand, are daily urged to do the very opposite - to complain, to accuse, to prosecute etc."

I agree with you that pressure on men to mask their feelings is NOT the mark of privilege. Nevertheless, there is no evidence that men are slaves in our culture. (I think Warren Farrell's analysis of the root of the word "hero" is interesting and revealing, but it doesn't prove anything on its own.) I thouroughly oppose the way feminism turns a blind eye to the fact that men work the most dangerous and fatal jobs for example, but that doesn't prove that men are slaves.

As for your claim that women are taught daily to complain or accuse, that is simply an unsupported generalization. Certainly some women do this, but I doubt that all, or even most women do so. If you want to point to problems like women being taught to bash males in Women's Studies programs, then fine, but that is hardly an issue that effects most women.

These types of arguments are good as an emotional appeal, but I think we really need to preserve accuracy in this type of debate.

[Harry]

Hello Aegis

1. Perhaps you need to look more closely at the women's chat show programmes and the soap operas which urge women daily to report 'abuse' of some sort.

2. I never once suggested that ALL women did anything.

3. Your second from last paragraph contains one of the biggest non-sequiturs I have seen recently.

Best wishes

Harry

[zuzu]

I knew it. Oprah is the devil.

[Harry]

You noticed that too, eh?

Well done!

[zuzu]

I bask in your approval.

[Harry]

And I in yours.

[Beste]

Perhaps you two give each other a hug.

[Harry]

Yes. Very funny Beste. I am glad to see that you are active - albeit loosely speaking.

But I am annoyed that one of the activists suggested that Hugo was to be untrusted around youngsters.

This is what we are supposed to be fighting against.

Men being falsely accused is one of the major problems facing men today. And, thanks largely to the feminists, men now more or less have to prove their innocence whenever they are accused of anything sexual concerning women or children.

Without exaggeration, hundreds of thousands of men have had their lives damaged directly by this sort of thing - and many have committed suicide.

Indeed, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US has been damaged significantly in one way or another by the mountains of man-hatred that emanate from the zillions of false accusations that are made every year and the onoing publcity surrounding them.

But I hope at least that Hugo learns a little something from the pain of the false accusation that was made against him - and that, perhaps, he will be thankful that it wasn't his wife or an aggrieved colleague who was making such a claim in order to seek revenge of some kind.

Proving his innocence could be difficult in this day and age.

And the consequences for him would be far more than mere temporary feelings of hurt!

They would be positively devastating.

Hugo has probably never come across people - men - to whom this has happened.

And Hugo, if you are reading this, I can promise you that such things have happened to hundreds of thousands of men - if not to millions - over the past two decades or so.

And, indeed, many ****more**** men have simply been THREATENED with such things.

Can you imagine the mountain of anger that has built up as a result?

Millions, Hugo.

And that's just over false accusations!

Then there are ***serious*** problems that men have faced concerning divorce, alimony, child support, paternity fraud, child access, sexual harassment, etc etc etc etc.

In other words, you can add a few more ***millions*** to the pot of angry men.

And you can add a few millions more that arise from the general misandry that pervades the ether - courtesy of the soaps, the chat shows, and so on - that also aggravates men.

And how anyone can think that society can actually benefit from all this defeats me.

Ho Hum.

Never mind.

Those men, they are a-gathering.

Harry

[bmmg39]

Harry: I certainly agree with you on the stupid comments made about the photo of Hugo at the playground. I obviously don't agree with Hugo in many areas, but there's nothing wrong with embracing your childlike side (I'm certainly "guilty" of that) and I seriously DOUBT he's any sort of child molester.

This brings up a point. Too many people on our side use the word "feminists" like it's an amorphous glob and all in that camp think the same way on everything. And too many on the "other side" paint men's rights activists with an equally broad brush.

[NYMOM]

"And Hugo, if you are reading this, I can promise you that such things have happened to hundreds of thousands of men - if not to millions - over the past two decades or so."

Oh sooooo then I guess you're saying it was okay what you all did to Hugo...since hundreds of thousands of men, if not millions, have had this happen to them already...

[Harry]

Oh dear, dear, dear, NYMOM.

My whole post concerning the matter says the ***very opposite*** of what you are claiming I said.

[bmmg39]

"Oh sooooo then I guess you're saying it was okay what you all did to Hugo..."

Knock off the "you all" crap, NYMOM, especially since you just saw two MRAs disapprove of it already.

[Fido]

Just an update to Gonz's remark about a Maine Men's commission - that was formed a couple of years ago and several noted "women's advocates" were posted to that commission who derailed it after a few meetings. New Hampshire has had better luck there.

As far as being tough - as a men's advocate, and someone who does a lot of work with men in crisis, I have been accused of being an "abuser" (merely by being a men's advocate,) a misogynist, and even a child abuser.

Personally, I went through a bitter divorce, had my life ripped open and exposed, and suffered what seemd like (at the time) unending humiliation. I am very familiar with the complaint of other men here about the divorce process, and during the worst 4 years of my life I was routinely accused of about everything - from being a negligent parent, an abusive spouse, to someone who physically abused my daughter. All these claims were discredited as the court process drained on, but as a loving parent who has always maintained a close relationship with my children, I will stake my claim along with everyone else in the "emotional abuse" pity party that is being celebrated here.

And, as a result of what I went through I understand first-hand the emotional pain that many men go through during that process, and I understand why many men kill themselves during divorces, (and that factor is supported my the National Institute of Mental Health, by the way. I find the willingness of "feminists" to discount and even ridicule assertions made by men of that causality to be disturbing, but typical.)

No doubt some will take my admission that was accused of things to mean, that I was, in fact, guilty of all those things. But, I will just add that to the past 7 years of personal ridicule and humiliation I have endured.

And a while ago I seemed to have attracted a stalker (female) who went into every aspect of my life, violated my personal privacy, and made contact with many of my friends in order to hurt and embarrass me. I lost at least one good and valuable relationship as a result of the six-month long nightmare.

I guess I survived it, I got though it, and I emerged with quite a different viewpoint of how things work. (I certainly am left with no illusions about how women might be the "gentler" sex, that's for sure!)

And nobody felt sorry for me, for what I went through, or apologized to me. I maintain my relationship with my children, and have mutually satisfying and respectful relationships with members of the opposite sex. I can't imagine there is a woman who actually knows me who would say I am a misogynist. (They would say that I am distrustful of most women that I meet, though. Just an emotional scar I ended up with based on my personal experience.)

So, anyway, I guess that's it's the difference between being an oak and talking about being an oak.

So, buck up, old bean, and know that folks have been through a lot worse than you and survived.

[Harry]

Hello bmmg39

"This brings up a point. Too many people on our side use the word "feminists" like it's an amorphous glob, and that they all think the same way on everything."

Well. I am particularly guilty of doing that.

And I do it on purpose.

It would take me too long to explain why I do it, but, in summary, I believe that the positive effects (viv-a-vis my aims) are much greater as a result.

I feel that I have 'a job to do.' And I know that many MRAs feel the same way.

And, for many of us, until feminism is as discredited, as denounced and as despised as is Nazism, we will not rest.

We see it as a thoroughly revolting and socially destructive ideology based on the lies and hatred mostly of deluded women and of self-serving political machinators who personally benefit from it at everyone else's expense.

It is even partly responsible for global warming!

http://www.angryharry.com/esFeminismCausesTrafficCongestion.htm

As such, I want to live in a world where no-one ever again positively endorses 'feminism'.

I want people to recognise it for the sheer awfulness that it represents.

And so even when, for example, a very nice person endorses feminism, I feel the same way as if they were endorsing Nazism.

I am outraged.

I see them as endorsing both a terrible threat to our future as well as endorsing the tremendous hurt that it has done to so many people in the past.

And this is why many MRAs attack **anyone** who endorse feminism - no matter how nice they might be.

For them, it is the same as Nazism - but, of course, without the gas chambers.

http://www.angryharry.com/esFeminismandNazism.htm

Best wishes

Harry

[NYMOM]

"Knock off the "you all" crap, NYMOM, especially since you just saw two MRAs disapprove of it already."

Like I care about what two MRAs diapprove of already...

[NYMOM]

"So, anyway, I guess that's it's the difference between being an oak and talking about being an oak."

I'm going to hate myself for saying this I almost hate myself already, but maybe Fido, you are just a 'blockhead' and not a strong oak at all...

Now I know many here are going to disagree with me saying this but FIDO here has made a LOT of rotten comments about women and even Hugo, on that mensnewsdaily forum board...

I lurk there even though I never post, but I've seen what you write there...Fido...

So don't complaint about this...you do deserve it...

[NYMOM]

"I feel that I have 'a job to do.' And I know that many MRAs feel the same way.

And, for many of us, until feminism is as discredited, as denounced and as despised as is Nazism, we will not rest.

We see it as a thoroughly revolting and socially destructive ideology based on the lies and hatred mostly of deluded women and of self-serving political machinators who personally benefit from it at everyone else's expense.

It is even partly responsible for global warming!"

Sigh...

I don't know if you made that utterly ridiculous statement in jest or if you really believe it...

Have you reached the maturation age yet of men in this society or what?