Some reflections on older men, younger women and integrity

Hugo is posting a lot today. 

My fiancee and I did make it out of the house this past weekend, despite the rain and our mutual flu affliction.  We went to see A Love Song for Bobby Long starring Scarlett Johansson and John Travolta.  It was a passable film if not a deeply memorable one, and the two leads were quite fine.  (I do want the soundtrack.) 

Johansson's character, "Pursey", is 18 and lovely.  Travolta plays the title character, a 50ish alcoholic former English professor prone to quoting George Eliot and making odious sexual remarks to Pursey.  At one point,following a particularly obscene comment, Pursey turns to Bobby in hurt and frustration and cries out "But I'm just a girl."  It's the line that lingered for me.   Pursey is legally an adult, and the film makes clear she is not sexually unexperienced -- but the plain power of that one line drove home for me the reality we often choose to ignore, that those who appear outwardly fully adult may still be in need of our care and protection.

I thought about this just now as I read this post by Sofia at Volsunga.  Among other things, she touches on issues of older men dating younger women, and I thought I'd add some musings. No, there will be no personal disclosures in this post.  All I will say is that I can say in all honesty that today my private life matches my public pronouncements on this issue, and to God be the glory for that.

I don't think I need to defend the proposition that we live in a culture that sexualizes and objectifies young women starting very early in life.   I work with junior high and high school age girls in my church youth group, and am well aware that a substantial number of them struggle with the overwhelming pressure to be alluring, to be sexy, to be powerful.  In frank group discussions, we've touched on these pressures many times over the years.  I've had countless similar (if slightly more sophisticated) discussions in classes with my students at PCC.

I see a great many young women eager for attention and validation from older men.  By "young", I mean both underage girls and college-aged women.  (What I mean by "older" depends on the age of the girl who is the subject of the conversation.  20 is an "older man" for a 16 year-old; 30, or even 40, might be an older man for a 21 year-old.)  For all of the progress our culture has made on some issues, it is truly remarkable how the older man/younger woman ideal has persisted.  Though there remains considerable disagreement about how old might be "too old" and how young might be "too young" (especially given legal considerations), most folks seem quite prepared to accept these relationships not only as normal, but perhaps even ideal. 

Now, I don't think that significant age gaps in relationships are always a problem, but I do think that they are far more problematic than we are willing to let on.  When we are talking about men over, say, 27 and women under 21, they are almost invariably a very poor idea.

I've often written about how much I enjoy working with young men and adolesecent boys.  I've talked about the importance of male role models, and about how crucial it is that older men take an active interest in the emotional  and spiritual development of young men, not just their athletic and intellectual achievements.  I love "my guys".  But I also think it's equally vital that adult men work with adolescent girls and young women.   I'm convinced that young girls badly need the presence of loving older men who are not parents or relatives, but who are still fundamentally safe.

I've heard, over and over again, how shocking and upsetting it is the first time a young girl realizes that an older man is sexually attracted to her.  The first catcall, the first leer, the first whistle, the first inappropriate remark -- these are seldom forgotten, and they leave deep and enduring wounds.  (The younger the girl and the older the predator, the deeper the scar, it seems.)  After these early experiences, by the time they arrive at college, many young women expect to be seen as objects of desire by men in their thirties, forties, and perhaps beyond.   Young women employ different strategies to cope with this onslaught of attention. Some hide from it, making a conscious effort to deemphasize their sexuality, to appear less desirable.  Others, more troublingly, see it as an opportunity to get much-wanted validation and attention.

In my work, it is absolutely critical that I never, ever, respond to the sexuality of the young women with whom I interact.   This has nothing to do with preserving my job, and everything to do with the precious integrity of my work on gender issues.  Now, at the risk of the accusation of narcissism, I will share that I do get plenty of female students who flirt with me, a few quite brazenly.  (My colleagues tell me it will happen less after I turn 40.)  I don't let it go to my head much, because I understand that it's not Hugo they really want.  At the risk of sounding paternalistic, what they really want is to be noticed, to be seen, to be validated as good and worthy and interesting individuals.  And they believe -- with good reason in most cases -- that using their sexuality is hands down the best (if not the only way) to get that attention that they rightly want.

If I were to flirt back, or if I were to date a student, I am convinced I would send a devastating message about  what older men "really" want.   Young women need older men in their lives who will respect and care about them, who aren't their fathers or brothers but who aren't prospective lovers, either.  They need to know that they bring more to the table than their sexuality.  They need to be seen as complete human beings.  Paradoxically, seeing young women as complete human beings means that in actions, words, and yes, even in thought, older men cannot see them as objects of sexual desire.  That doesn't mean that we (older guys) shouldn't acknowledge that younger women are sexual creatures.  But we must (and the burden is on us alone here, fellas) love them with radical unselfishness,and that requires that we ourselves always refrain from sexualizing them.  We need to see them as Pursey wanted to be seen.

When I first started teaching, I wanted to be admired.  The older I get, I am happy to report, the less I worry about that.  I do still do care what my college students (and my youth group kids) think of me.  I don't care all that much if they think I'm brilliant or eloquent or handsome (though, oh, one likes to hear that sort of flattery).  But there is something I do care very much about.  I want all of the young people I work with, be they 14, 18, or 21, to think I'm safe.  The longer I do this work, the more that becomes my goal.  I want my kids to know I love them for who they are, I want my students to know I respect and honor their minds and their spirits, not their bodies. 

I will not sit in judgment of others' relationships, save those that are obviously exploitative.  Clearly, not all young women are equally mature at the same chronological age.  But I will say that older men do well to see younger women as full human beings rather than objects of desire.  If more of us would take small steps to make the younger women around us feel both seen and safe, our culture would be a damn sight better off.

All Comments are closed at this post.  Please visit my new blog and an entire category on older men, younger women.  You may comment on this post there.

Comments

[Christopher Smart]

From Schwyzer's post above:

"For all of the progress our culture has made on some issues, it is truly remarkable how the older man/younger woman ideal has persisted. Though there remains considerable disagreement about how old might be "too old" and how young might be "too young" (especially given legal considerations), most folks seem quite prepared to accept these relationships not only as normal, but perhaps even ideal."

What absolute crap. In this suspicious, prudish, hypocritical society, that idolizes youth and marginalizes anyone over the age of forty, the prevailing attitude to an older man involved with a younger woman is reflexive disdain, disgust, or something worse. Yet this sanctimonious prig must pretend that black is white in order that he may portray himself as an intrepid man of integrity challenging society's dominant mores.

There is nothing more contemptible than self-righteous moral grandstanding that merely strokes and massages prevailing societal prejudices masquerading as deep wisdom. Schywyzer is a *flatteur* and a fraud. After reading his drivel, I feel like I need a shower.

[Hugo]

Someday, I'm going to collect my various posts on this subject of older men and younger women, pull them together, and include a large smattering of the large number of comments they have all received. It's really fascinating how many folks get stirred up by this topic!

Christopher, you are free to disagree with me, of course. But "fraud" implies that I am somehow not living out what I profess. My wife (gorgeous beyond words with a heart of spun gold) won't see 30 again, so I'm hardly violating my own principles here.

[Christopher Smart]

Uh-oh, back to grammar school for you, Hugo! The root notion of 'fraud' is *representing oneself as something one is not.* My post was quite clear about how this notion applies here. You represented yourself as (in my characterization) "a man of integrity challenging society's dominant mores," but you are no such thing. You are instead, I claimed, the sort of person who *strokes and massages prevailing societal prejudices.* Your wife has nothing to do with it, I 'm afraid. Sorry if this is too abstract for you to grasp.

[RedWinePlease]

I think older men are interested in younger women because they embodies youth and beauty. If one has a choice between a prune or a plum, the likelyhood is clear. But also because some younger women look up to older men...admires him, respect him, and idolizes him. Of course this adds to his desire wants for younger women...haha.

What older men lack in energy and drive he makes up for in experience and skills. And I think older men treats younger women with more tolerance and understanding than her counter part.

As for the "gold-diggers" out here, well, I suppose there are a few bad apples. And I rarely see younger women going for the poor older men so there must be some truth in his income level. Clearly, men who are mature and responsible are not necessarily poor. However, in general, I think that men like to be idolized and respected and look up to while women like to be adore and care for. In an older man younger women relationship, this is what likely would take place.

I've always dated younger men. Not by choice but because I look young and attracts them. However, recently I met an older man (10 years older) who I find very alluring. I guess the reason is because he's patient with me and also intellectually stimulating. I was not attracted to him physically at first but after getting to know him better, all I do is fantasize about him.

I guess my point is that there are so many reasons why older men and younger women are attracted to each other. Even this kind of relationship get its share of problems...like all others.

[msw]

I really care about a man who is close to my age, I am 38. However, a girl who is much younger then him has a huge crush on him. She is 22. It annoys me to no end to see her staring at him everytime he is in the room. I know that he is interested in me, because he has said so. He has also shared very personal information with me. I know he trusts me. I trust him. This girl gets on my every last nerve. Not only does she have a crush on him, every time she speaks to me it is like she is trying to one up me. She is always very snotty and sarcastic to me, I just want to smack her in the mouth. I am trying very hard to be the nice responsible adult, but this is not easy.

[Martin]

Well, FWIW, I'm a 40 year old male who has no interest whatsoever in hooking up with any woman over 30. When I'm 50 and over I'll have the same attitude. Why would I want some 35+ woman with saggy boobs, cellulite and stretch marks, and who's almost certain to be dragging around a couple of kids and a load of bitterness from a failed marriage, when there are all these hotties in their 20's out there who don't have those liabilities? Go ahead, call me shallow and worse; you can't possibly offend me. I'm fortunate to be very youthful looking for my age (no crows feet, very boyish face, what little grey is showing up in my hair is easily dyed, no one believes me when I tell them my age), and so why not enjoy life to its fullest? I like beautiful women and the reality of biology is that women are more beautiful when they're young, the Sandra Bullocks of the world notwithstanding (and there aren't exactly a lot of them). I just don't see why the age difference thing is so evil in so many people's eyes. I think people just like judging others, feeling morally superior. Screw that.

[shelly Williams]

Hi, I just turned 18 a few months ago, I am a female and finishing up my last year in highschool. And I have a guy friend that is 28 yrs old, that I have known since I was 16 yrs. I hang out with him all the time. The problem is that he is starting to touch me, like massaging my hands, neck, back, and putting his hands on my legs and around my waist. And playing with my hair and touching my face and hugging me. And I just feel so uncomfortable with it, he makes me feel uneasy is this normal?? I thought that him and I were just friends, but is this him trying to show me that he wants to be more then friends?? A friend of mine said that it was abusive because he does not ask to touch me is that true?? He says that he would die if I died, and he calls me his little kid. I really need advice and help I am not sure what to do. Thanks

[Rollo Tomassi]

Again, I'll point out that age difference issues and the uniquely male shame associated with it is another social contrivance with the latent intent of keeping women's options as primary sexual selector open in order to ensure her long term security. As women age thier sexual marketability declines, while a man's increases with age and maturity. The struggle for a woman then is to remain as sexually appealing long enough to secure long term provisioning and security, but in today's society of quick divorces and the constant making and breaking of these bonds, new contrivances have to be installed in the popular consciousness.

A 40 year old woman who's intimate with a 22 year old guy is cause for celebration in feminized society, because it's affirmation that a woman can remain attractive enoough to peak the sexual interest of a young man. It refreshes women into thinking 'they still got it' and is therefore viewed as a positive while also being a 'just desserts' gender reversal of what female interests perceive as negative - a 40 y.o. man being intimate with a 22 y.o. woman. This arrangement is reinforced in the negative (usually with shame) because it runs counter to ensuring sexual marketability for an aging female population.

Of course older men are going to be more attracted to younger women, they are in the peak of their sexuality and their physicality (usually) while he's matured enough and attained a level of provisioning ability that few younger men can boast of. Our biologies prompt us toward the younger woman and our psychologies justify it be being "deserving" of a beautiful woman. This then necessitates conventions that marginalize his interests and maximize those of women who can no longer compete to the same degree in this arena.

[Kara Johns]

Well, well, Rollo. I guess you have hit the nail on the head. This prejudice against younger women with older men can only be an evil scheme concocted by nasty feminists to trick society into valuing women as whole human beings, instead of for the only things they should be valued for: beauty and youth.

Those terrible women! Convinced they will have no long-term security without being able to fool men into marrying them and supporting them for the rest of their lives, and having the audacity to think they might have something valuable to offer men as mature women (please!), AND faced with the terrible unfairness of men actually becoming MORE marriageable as they get older while they become LESS marriageable, they simply had to come up with this silly plot whereby a woman's age is to be considered an asset rather than a detriment! Of course, it is all designed to pull the wool over the eyes of society, which should know better than to believe these old bats or to fall for their wiles!

If we are fortunate, people will not be fooled by this malarkey. They will continue to realize the truth according to you: that women are valuable only for as long as they are young, fecund and pretty, whereas men get better with age as they inevitably increase their earning power and ability to provide for a woman. Such a model of manhood, in fact, DESERVES a young woman. He has earned it! Step right up sir, and collect your trophy! Anyone who tries to make you feel guilty about it, well...obviously, she is just some nasty, resentful, hostile old spinster feminist who's too old and ugly to deserve a stud such as yourself. So she might as well stop the societal guilt-trip, huh? Forget her, and enjoy that life with your young and lovely woman until she becomes too old and unattractive to keep up with your increasing value on the sexual market...at which time you might try trading her in for a brand-new model. One must ensure one keeps "trading up," you know!

Wow. Call me crazy, but somewhere along the line I got the idea that it might be possible to have a fully dimensional and loving relationship with a man in which we each valued the other as a whole human being, and not just because one of us was young or physically attractive or fertile or able to make lots of money and support us both. But I guess that won't be possible now, because I am too old, and hence, as a woman, I lack all value other than that I can fool society into thinking I have in order to "ensure my sexual marketability." I can no longer "compete" with women who have the youth I no longer have. How much better it must be for men, who have the unlimited capacity to go on throughout their entire lives being sexually marketable so long as they can be breadwinners, while women have no choice but to lose their youth and hence their opportunity and right to be loved.

Of course, I see the kind of man who has to constantly trade in a no-longer-young woman for a new model as being rather pathetic and lacking in the ability to form a solid, meaningful relationship with another human being based on something other than her physical appearance or youth. And I suspect that at heart he's actually quite a lonely man. But that's probably just a contrivance installed in me by the popular consciousness. For all I know, he's enjoying his love-'em-for-a-while-then-throw-'em-on-the-scrapheap life to the hilt. Or at least he could, if only "society" wouldn't try to shame him over it so cruelly in the name of making aging females like me feel better about our sorry, shriveled selves.

[From one who has been there]

I have been down that road of being an older male with younger women. Is there some merit in that kind of relationship possible, will it work, some do some don’t? Mine never have for what reasons I don't really know except for the fact of the 15 to 25 years difference in age. You both are at different places in your lives; you both are really looking for something different?

I might have been looking for a women who would become a wife and mother, a young women offers that, where an older women dose not in a lot of cases. May be I was looking for that first love and marriage that did not work out. After all my first wife just two years younger then me, had a habit of screwing older men with whom she worked the years we were married. Even went as far as having an abortion because she knew the child was not mine and trying to convince me it was not an abortion. May be this was laying the ground work for me to seek out younger women. Maybe I was looking to be a protector and provider to younger women when the marriage failed. Maybe I just enjoyed the sex, the company and the good looks. I don't think that is all I enjoyed. I felt that I had deep relationship and strong feelings for the young women and I still think of both even today. Maybe even today in my 60's I still want that family that just didn't work out and a younger women can provide that.

What did the younger women want, money, travel, and sex, someone that could provide for them? Some one that was living life to its fullest. In both cases it seem like they deeply cared for me. But in both cases they ended up being swayed by friends and family about the age difference. Yet in both cases later a few months or a year down the road they suggested that we could get back together. That they were wrong and the people they listen to were wrong.

They both told me that they like the attention I paid to them. That younger males were just interested in having sex and then going off doing there thing. Where I could show interest in them, talk with them, not trying to control them and there actions. They had freedom to make choices and therefore would could talk to me about those choices. That love making was a slow process with dinner, wine, a candle light, a fire in a fire place, soft back ground music. Or a night on the dance floor, where the floor was theirs. When other move aside and let the couple dance, where they felt the center of attention. Or it could be spur of the moment while out on a horse back ride by a high mountain stream, or in a high open mountain meadow, or on the beach in the late evening after a walk. That gifts and flowers would arrive with a fan fair at unexpected times. That it was the back rubs and foot rubs with out expecting something in return.

Yet those relationships end with what I think was outside pressure by again girl friends of the lady and family of the lady because of the age difference. Why because they both told they were being pressured by those people. With one father going as far as telling his daughter she was just a kept slut.

In the end I did find women nearer my age by 8 years younger and it has worked well for the past 9 years. We seem to be more attune to each others needs, cares and wants, to the point we were married two years ago

Yet I still long for that younger woman of 24 to 29 old even though I know we have very little in common. Knowing that if one were 18 to 23 would just be raw sex for a few weeks.

Yet again there are times I think about being with much younger women.

So there you have it from someone who may never find this site again. A mind that is over work and thinking about the past and what might have been.

[Kara Johns]

"From one," your observations are interesting. At least you are being honest with yourself about examining your possible motivations and those of the younger women you were with.

You can say you think your relationships with younger women ended due only to outside pressure, but how can you be sure of that? And if these women ended these relationships just because of outside pressure, were they really worth it?

I guess I feel that your relationships with those women may have been pleasurable for both you and them for a while, but they were not relationships of equals, and relationships of equals have the best chance for success.

It seems to me that the wife you have now is more appropriate for you, and maybe more challenging because she IS more of an equal. But that can be challenging, and scary, and sometimes you can't help but wish to have back the simplicity of a relationship in which the woman was much younger than you, you were firmly in charge and she was along for the ride, and, well, the sex was really hot and not complicated by all the business of having to maintain a full and complete and lasting relationship with a person.

But I think if you really think about it, the relationship likely to be most rewarding is one that demands the most of you and the most of your partner, and in which each of you both gives the most and gets the most.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I think one of the reasons older men are so much more frequently drawn to younger women than older women are to younger men is because of the tendency of men to be perfectly OK with sex as the driving force of a relationship...at least for a time. And that's precisely what they get out of the younger woman...hot sex from a hot body. They don't necessarily get much of anything else, but that doesn't bother them as much as it would bother most women. Most women are looking for more.

I think men also have a greater need to be admired and worshiped by their partners than women do. Most women want to be cherished and treasured, but they frankly feel creeped out by the idea of a man looking at them with big puppy-dog eyes and telling them all the livelong day how wonderful they are. Men don't seem to have a problem with women who do that. They are more comfortable with being the older, better positioned, superior partner to the younger, more dependent, inferior partner. It is relationships of equals that scare them. So they turn to the younger woman, because as much as she may spar with them and stamp her pretty foot on occasion, she will never be much of a threat...they will always have the upper hand with her. As long as they can keep her from growing up, and wanting something more out of HER relationship. But then, if she does, she can move on...and they, too, can move on to a younger version of what they had.

[maria]

when older man are willing to date ..woman 20 years older than themselfs because she is so vibrant and takes good care of herself and looks much younger bla bla bla ...you know the excuses they give why they should have a woman 20 years younger ..than i believe the storys ...they are old man just like woman are old woman ..and they cant understand that...so they pay a price also there is a power imbalance in these relationships and its hurtful to the man also ...so older woman rest assured they suffer..with these young woman ..and selfish is just that selfish and we all have to pay...my two cents worth lol

[Bananaleaf - 28-year-old woman has a crush on 59]

Would anyone tell me what is in this 59-year-old guy's mind? would he feel awkward of being with some one 31 year junior of his age? and what i can do to progress this 'relationship'?

Basically, what happenes was I met this guy through business and I found him incredibly attractive and felt that the interests are mutual. But given his position as the head of the client, all we had was the eye contacts. I approached him again when I moved to a new company working as a sales related role. The chemistry was intense and he flirted with me but also brought up his age, and took me on a drive to his house.. (dun get excited)... to meet his 34 year old son before we his his country club.. and btw, i learnt that he is divorced.

I am a flirt with a handful of dating experiences but the situation was a bit overwhelemed and awkward (hanging out with a father and son??),I didn't do anything to express my intersts. Adding that I am concerned myslef to be taken as a golddigger and was confused that why he kept wanting me to meet his son. He then reacted to that accordingly and our communication ended after that.

Recently, I lost my job after I lost my brother, as well as the wallet and newly bought (by msyelf) PDA phone. My guy friends urged me to write him so he could perhaps offer me a job in one of the country thier business covers and I did so.

He hasn't replied yet..

I really am intersted in him and ..if there are job opps come with it then that will be the best. but right now. i'd be so happy to see him again. Not for marraige for sure, but just for a period of time, I do aware he is a 59 !

Any advice you can share so I can see him again?

In case you wonder who I am. Unlike girls who are wandering in their young age or look for a sugadaddys. I have 2 master degrees from world top school,living in different countries by myslef for past 10 years (supported by parents).

[Npanda2]

I am in a relationship where there is an age gap of 14 years. It is the first relationship of this kind and I am extremely very happy. I don't like this idea that men are always predators in this case. Afterall it takes two to tango! I have always gone out with guys the same age as me and I feel that this relationship is just the same as the others I have had. I don't feel that my boyfriend is too old as I am just mature as him and have got the same qualifications as him. I am not dependent on him for me, we share the rent and other expenses. We must also take into consideration the family history in order to understand why younger women go for older men. I believe that my family as in not growing up to see my father who died when I was very young could be possibly linked to the relationship I am in now. Pyschology is a key factor.

[Enolihi]

I am curious. What about all the older women who can't find men, because the men chose the younger ones? What is to become of them? Is this fair?