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December 10, 2004

Comments

mythago

No support system exists for them to take their children to any kind of abuse center

Isn't that something you guys should get right on? Why isn't the men's-rights movements doing exactly what the women's movement did? That is, volunteering, grass-roots organizing, passing along help for abuse victims and their kids?

Responsibility goes two ways.

Sure does. Why is it that women always get blamed for the man's irresponsibility, too? You can't even condemn irresponsible men without sniping at the women who choose them (but not vice-versa, apparently).

Amanda

I remember hearing some feminist women in college suggesting that much oppression of women stems from some sort of deep jealousy that men have that women can bear children. I always thought that was crap. But then you hear men's rights activists go on and on and on and on and on about how unfair it is that women make the decision whether to bear a child or not, and I begin to suspect that these women had a point.

shinrikyou

should i even bother ?
there is some theory of Freud's you know. :--)

what has made such a thing as a "husband trapped in an abusive relationship" is the terror system that has been offered to wives to use.
the police and the courts are on her side.

well anyway i don't see how "traditional masculinity" is about male supremacy, although you could find some elements i guess.
you could also find some elements of female supremacy in "traditional femininity" and even more in "contemporary femininity".

i don't know what is all this "power" that men supposedly "wield" and should "give up" despite receiving absolutely no benefits from that.
the largest "difference" is in posture and tone of voice, men walk and talk straight, while women arch their backs, show off their cleavages and fake their voice. well this is something that they thenmselves choose to do.

it seems that the more men try to be "equal and fair" with women, the more women hate them.

shinrikyou

but in any case, if feminists and pro-feminist men's movement guys do believe that men have "too much" "power" in "society", then ask yourself a good question:
what do men get out of giving it up ?
are women even thankful to men for it ?

Laughing

This has been going on for way too long. It's like trying to reason with the offspring of the village idiot.

I plan to follow the feminists advice and stay away. I will however continue to read about your incredible contributions to society...umm hang on it's coming to me...umm well there's that .... no umm... well I know there's umm... well look I'm sure you can read about it somewhere on the feminist sites or just visit the local male hate camp (back before PC and feminism I believe it was called a university) to find out more. Enjoy your IVF and remember a fish and a bicycle shall never meet (wait no she did get married didn't she) Ass! Gosh it’s exciting watching the new man at work.

To steal a great line “I can’t lie to you about your chances – but you do have my deepest sympathies.”

mythago

are women even thankful to men for it ?

Why on earth do you expect anyone to thank you for doing the right thing? Do you also believe that African-Americans should thank white people for the 13th Amendment?

I plan to follow the feminists advice and stay away.

"But not before one final tantrum!" Ah, the Internet...

shinrikyou

---
Why on earth do you expect anyone to thank you for doing the right thing?
---
uh...
so let's see
i'm a "man" and i have 2 choices of how to act towards women
1. crush and oppress them, and then they have to be nice to me and play by my rules
2. be nice/fair to them and get kicked in the nuts in return
what am i supposed to choose ?

---
Do you also believe that African-Americans should thank white people for the 13th Amendment?
---
yes

thisgirl

hehe the usual gay slurs are being slung around about you now hugo, funny how they note your liberal stance and feminist ideals yet still think it's going to offend you!


DJW

Hugo, I think this post may have been a strategic error....

Hugo

DJW, you may be right -- call it a Friday afternoon lapse in judgment.

mythago

and get kicked in the nuts in return

How, exactly, are you getting "kicked in the nuts"?

thisgirl, you completely missed highlighting the hilarious part about "tolerating the Queen." Don't threaten your man, ladies! That's not what he puts up with you for!

thisgirl

Hugo, I think it's important people challenge M.R. arguments, however much trolling they get and however obvious the criticisms appear to be to pro-feminists/feminists. Not to mention pointing out there's a real men's movement out there which doesn't buy into this idea that for men to progress women must be denigrated, or this fear of feminism. I applaud you.

Fred Vincy

I agree with Thisgirl that it's important to expose folks like this. I checked the site today and it's even more hateful and full of anger than yesterday: "Marital rape laws have eliminated any requirement that there be an actual sexual relationship between the partners (along with the radfem's hatred of male sexuality)"; "If women had a lick of damn sense .... But, we all know that women don't."; and on and on.

What's troubling to me is not so much that they disagree with most of the readers of this site, lots of people do after all, but that they are so obviously not capable of or not interesting in engaging in a reasoned discussion of anything. So, let's all continue to expose the hatred, but not waste our time trying to engage their "arguments". I will begin by biting my tongue and not responding when they respond that this proves that I can't disprove their arguments, am brainwashed, am gay, or whatever....

thisgirl

I can't help but pick up on the bad arguing technique sometimes, particularly in their assumption that one commentor was me when he/she wasn't; sadly it's a largely pointless exercise!

typhonblue

Jessy said(in quotes):
"Keeping it in their pants would be a good option for these men."

Isn't that as callous as saying that women should keep their legs crossed if they don't want to get pregnant?

"Either that, or accepting responsiblity for reliable birth control."

Could you please name a reliable and reversible form of birth control that men control? (Reliable would be something at least in the upper ninties for pregnacy prevention, so condoms are out.)

"Isn't that pretty much what women are told?"

As a woman, no one has ever told me such a callous thing. Plus, with all the legal options avialiable to women to avoid an unwanted pregnancy (and none for men) you can say with certainty that when a woman "opens her legs", gets pregnant and stays pregnant, she wants to be a mother.

That's the difference. Women get the choice to be mothers, men don't get the choice to be fathers. (In that context it's amazing to me that men rarely abdicate complete responsibility for their children. After all they had no choice in assuming those responsibilities.)At any point prior or after opening her legs a woman can prevent or terminate pregnancy. Without reliable contraceptive controlled by a man or an equivalent option to abortion (such as signing away legal responsibilities), men have no such choices.

So saying that "he should keep his pants zipped" is equivalent to "she should keep her legs closed" is disingenious. It would only be the same if women had no access to reliable birth control or abortion.

"The same standard certainly should hold true for men."

Yes. The same standards should hold for men and women. Men should have the same legal options to terminate or avoid parental responsibility as women. (And to forstall any bullshit arguments, I'm pro-choice.)

"What does Jesse say to his non-child supporting fellows who brag about how many children they have by different women?"

What do you say to single mothers who brag about getting child support from multiple men?

"It is clear that Jesse holds women accountable for many of society's ills."

Considering that women comprise 51% of our population, Aproximately 60% of voters, make 80% of consumer purchases and control over 50% of western wealth, they very well might be accountable for many of society's ills.

"I would like to know if he holds his fellow men equally accountable for their part in the neglect of children in this country."

A non-custodial mother who has to pay child support is less likely to pay then a non-custodial father who has to pay child support. Would you like a source on that? Here it is...

"Custodial Mothers and Fathers and their Child Support", U.S. Department of Commerce, Economics and Statistics Administration, U.S. Census Bureau

If we really want to improve the child support crisis, maybe we should look into why non-custodial PARENTS default on child support.

If we lay all responsibility on the "irresponsibility of men"(or some other negative quality apparently only men have) we are overlooking what could amount to a vital clue. Why non-custodial WOMEN also default on child support.

warble

Surprisingly a few of the arguments by thisGirl, Hugo, and others are rational. By contrast the other arguments are clearly based in ignorance and bigotry against males.

For example, if a male is angry because he has experience some form of oppression like paternity fraud or false accusations then Hugo dismisses them as "angry males." That is clearly because of his hate-based ideology.

If is clear that he has a hate based ideology because of his inability to get along with masculine males (his own admission).

However, as a male I will never support Marxist-Feminism or Chivalrous forms of feminism that preach the oppression of men so that females can have special rights and privileges.

Finally, I seriously doubt that Hugo has ever done anything of value to actually help men with male issues. Helping males would mean going to the legislature and testifying on behalf of oppressed males.

Ohhhh…oppressed males? What’s that? Why everbody knows that males have always had special privilege. NOT!

Warble

Jonathan Dresner

What strikes me about the men's movement folks represented here is their incredibly short memories. Most of what they see as "special rights" for women are very recent innovations intended (and most of them pretty successful) to rectify deeply ingrained social patterns which disadvantaged women (sometimes to the point of endangering their lives) and which seem highly likely to revert (or which haven't actually been entirely eliminated to begin with) if those programs are cancelled.

They forget that the disdain and fear of men felt by so many feminists (including feminist men) was earned over centuries and will not disappear in a generation. Some of the programs may need tweaking, some new issues may arise, but treating the present as though it had always been thus is a grave error.

typhonblue

Jonathan wrote(in quotes):
"'Special rights' for women are very recent innovations intended (and most of them pretty successful) to rectify deeply ingrained social patterns which disadvantaged women (sometimes to the point of endangering their lives) and which seem highly likely to revert (or which haven't actually been entirely eliminated to begin with) if those programs are cancelled."

Let me ask you a question. Do you think feminism could have come about during the Roman Empire?

zuzu

"Special rights" is a common dismissal of equal rights.

Could you please name a reliable and reversible form of birth control that men control? (Reliable would be something at least in the upper ninties for pregnacy prevention, so condoms are out.)

Condoms work pretty well. And why aren't more men who don't want to be fathers against their will out there agitating for men's birth control or getting vasectomies? After all, gentlemen, you can't trust a woman who says she's on birth control, can you?

typhonblue

Zuzu wrote(in quotes):
"Condoms work pretty well."

No they don't. Out of 100 couples using condoms, 15 can expect to get pregnant after the first year.

That certainly isn't effective enough for me.

"And why aren't more men who don't want to be fathers against their will out there agitating for men's birth control or getting vasectomies?"

There are. I know one man who got a vasecotomy without his wife's knowledge because she kept getting pregnant without even consulting him about going off birth control. Plus I do know of other men who are "agitating" for better birth control methods.

"After all, gentlemen, you can't trust a woman who says she's on birth control, can you?"

Apparently not. It's called an "oops" and it's quite common.

mythago

special rights and privileges

Which ones, specifically?

It's not the case, by the way, that women have an absolute choice not to become mothers. Women have a limited right to terminate a pregnancy through abortion. They also have a right, if unmarried and the father is absent or has had his rights severed*, to put a born child up for adoption. That's not the same as "right not to be a mother."

*Some states have laws that prevent a rapist from having any paternal rights to a child resulting from a rape he committed.

Michelle

"As a woman, no one has ever told me such a callous thing."

Typhonblue, how wonderful for you. What a different experience you have had from myself and the women I know. We have been told those things and more. Perhaps you haven't had to worry about pregnancy very much? Yeah, it's callous. So is men double and triple dippin' and then skippin'.

You assume that a women who has sex, gets pregnant and stays pregnant wants to be a mother. Perhaps she is not pro-choice like you. Perhaps she doesn't want to take a life. Last I heard, there was a pretty big split on this issue.

Men control the pharmas, which are busy developing drugs the likes of Viagra, while not putting nearly enough attention on male contraceptive options. Although, I hear it's in the works. To be fair, I wonder how many women would believe a guy if he said he was on the pill...

I should have said, "It is clear that Jessy holds women accountable for *most* of society's ills." Yes, we are all responsible for the economic choices that we make. However, take a look at the Fortune 500. How many are women? I wonder how many women run the World Bank? How many women are in prominent positions in world governments? (Rhetorical questions, of course.)

For the record, I haven't heard women bragging about receiving child support from multiple men. More the opposite. Tales of failed relationships and no child support are more like it. I'm sure it happens, but I don't encounter it. Perhaps I don't hang out with people who have good lawyers. The people I know can't afford them.

zuzu

Zuzu wrote(in quotes):
"Condoms work pretty well."

No they don't. Out of 100 couples using condoms, 15 can expect to get pregnant after the first year.

That certainly isn't effective enough for me.

Gee, 85% seems like better odds than nothing. If a man wants to be sure that the woman he's sleeping with doesn't get pregnant and make him a father against his will, he ought to do what he can in terms of barrier methods or surgery to make sure that the risk is minimized. Obviously, he can't be sure that a woman is taking a pill or has an IUD inserted or has her tubes tied, but he can watch her put in a diaphragm, he can put a condom on himself, he can get a vasectomy, or he can insist on contraceptive foam, gel or the like.

Or, he could abstain from sex with women he doesn't know well or isn't married to.

By the way, women just don't "keep getting pregnant" all by their lonesomes.

shinrikyou

---
They forget that the disdain and fear of men felt by so many feminists (including feminist men) was earned over centuries and will not disappear in a generation.
---
wow i wasn't aware that feminists have existed for centuries. @_@
as far as i know most of them (at least in Europe/US/UK/Canada/Australia) are white middle class (and some upper class) women with a higher education.

---
How, exactly, are you getting "kicked in the nuts"?
---
read this line that i wrote:
---
it seems that the more men try to be "equal and fair" with women, the more women hate them.
---
but anyway what am i supposed to "give up" in order to "help women"
(which are pretty hateful and unthankful)
especially since i can easily be screwed in my life by these women, and they will do it gleefully and probably will use the powers already granted to them by men in the effort to be "fair and equal".

feminists have trouble understanding that "men" aren't a monolithic block and men in the government or "controlling the pharmas" don't help me the slightest bit, and i don't get to participate in their "control and power".

Amanda

Typhon, you're using bad number. 15 can be expected to get pregnant in a year if they are using them incorrectly. If it's not too much trouble, you can learn to use them correctly. I'll give you a hint: not using lube is the biggest reason they break.

Anyway, Hugo, you're a tough one for this. I avoid the men's rights people because any random rant is so full of symbolism and imagery stemming from deep-seated anger and insecurities that I find myself just explicating it, line for line.

The troubling thing to me is that in one sense, men's rights activists are right that feminism is taking away things that they used to be able to expect to have in life--female subservience, exagerrated praise for common behaviors from women currying favor, an ability to get married and expect sex without having to put forth equal effort into making the wife happy as she puts into him--all these things are being taken away by feminism. Of course, thoughtful men realize that these things were never theirs to begin with, but just stolen goods.

But I imagine if you steal a BMW and the owner comes to take it back, you feel the pain of the loss.

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