More on Mark Foley and working with teens

I'm thinking about Mark Foley again this morning.   I have nothing to say about the political fallout of the case.  "Who knew what when" is the old scandal game that I find very dull to play and discuss.

I am always, always particularly saddened when an adult crosses a sexual boundary with a teenager of either sex.  I am stunned by the possibility that since the boys with whom he exchanged sexually explicit IMs were 16 or older, any act that may or may not have taken place between them would be legal in most states, given that 16 is the age of consent in most places.  (This is not a post about consent, but I feel strongly that a 16 year-old may be able to consent to sex with an 18 year-old boyfriend or girlfriend -- but not to someone over, say, 25 or 30.  To me "consent to whom" ought to be a key part of the law.  If I were -- heaven forbid -- to cross that line with a 17 year-old, I ought to go to jail for a nice long time.)

But as I've pointed out in other posts on the subject of being a youth leader, the tragedy of the Foley case is that it increases the suspicion we have of the interest that older adults show in teens.  I read this week that Foley's first emails to one page should have raised alarms, not because of their sexual content but because Foley seemed to show "excessive interest" in the boy.  That troubles me -- are we clear about what constitutes excessive interest?

I have the cell phone numbers of many of my teens.  They have mine.  (They do not have my home phone.)  I have their emails, and, in some cases, their IMs.  They have mine.  And I do contact boys and girls, and they me.   I ask about sports, I ask about family, I ask about grades, I ask about faith.   I don't send unsolicited emails, of course -- I always invite the kids to contact me first.  And I am scrupulous about the content of those e-mails and IMs.  I always save the e-mails, always.  I don't save the IMs  because I don't know how, but I would if I could.  In the extremely unlikely event of a false accusation of something, I want to be able to have a "paper trail."

We live in an era where an adult who shows genuine and sincere interest in the well-being of a young teenager is liable to the charge of pedophilic "grooming".  ("Grooming" refers to building a relationship of trust with a child prior to making sexual advances.)  The behavior of men like Mark Foley doesn't help those of us who maintain and nurture loving, candid, safe relationships with teens of both sexes. But as I 've said before and will say again, we've got to do more than lament the high incidence of betrayal and abuse.  We've got to keep loving the kids safely and fearlessly.

The twin pitfalls for a youth leader at a time like this are self-righteousness and fear.  On the one hand, it is vital to avoid defensive proclamations of one's own innocence.   When parents or other adults question our interest in their children, we owe them a frank and honest answer -- it is our job to reassure and convince those who love teens and kids that we are safe.  And in the current climate, that's a lot of work.

On the other hand, we can't let fear cause us to withdraw our hugs, our attention, or our love.  I'm not going to stop asking Susie about soccer, or Billy about band, or Yesenia about yearbooks.  I'm not going to stop making myself available to them via modern technology. If kids rely on technology to communicate, youth leaders need to be accessible.   The risks of false accusations are real.  But the risks of withdrawing our attention, interest, and affection are greater still.

Comments

[Fiona]

Do you ever worry about being sexually attracted to your students or youth group kids? Don't you ever think you might be tempted to cross the line? You write as if you are immune to temptation. Just because you don't act on it doesn't mean you don't feel it!!

[lorie]

Not to pass over the more serious parts of this post, but I just wanted to tell you that saving IMs is really easy. Just click on File at the top of your IM window and choose "Save." You can also hit Ctrl+S at any time.

I've saved IMs for the very reason you suggest, but also sometimes because I'm just sentimental like that.

[Toy Soldier]

We live in an era where an adult* who shows genuine and sincere interest in the well-being of a young teenager is liable to the charge of pedophilic "grooming". *bolds are mines

Let us be honest, it is men who are liable to the charge of pedophilic "grooming". Regardless of that, the age of consent would not necessarily prevent charges of statutory rape, assuming they would even be filed given the victim.

Speaking from experience, there is little difference between normal adult behavior and predatory behavior. The main reason it is both so successful and so hard to notice is that it does not seem out of the ordinary. This is particularly true with female predators. We could be hyper-vigilant and hide away our daughters until they are 18, but that is an absurd response. The best defense is to be active in teens' lives and to be aware of the relationships they have with adults. I also think being aware of the adult's age is important. A 25 year old and 16 year old is less suspicious than someone who is in his forties and interested in 14 year olds.

[wolfa]

You can autosave all IM conversations, too. It depends on which client you're using, but you can in yahoo and msn, and if you use trillian, you can save them in AIM (and yahoo and msn and icq). Gmail chat allows the same. It's really easy to do.

[catty]

"Do you ever worry about being sexually attracted to your students or youth group kids? Don't you ever think you might be tempted to cross the line? You write as if you are immune to temptation. Just because you don't act on it doesn't mean you don't feel it!!"

Not speaking for Hugo, but I remember talking to my friends who are teachers about this subject. One of the guys, a man in his forties, said that what attracts people to him on a personal level is their life experience, and also someone that challenges him intellectually. Kids just do not have the maturity or the life experience to really generate any kind of interest for him. I can believe that, because I relate. While I've seen attractive 18 or 19 year old boys, I've just *never* found them appealing for the same reason.

[Jas]

I had a slight problem with your last sentences. The risks of false accusations of sexual abuse are not "real", or at the very least insignificant. Making it appear as if men (or specifically those who work with children) should guard against the "very real" problem of false accusations is insulting to all of the "very real" victims whose allegations are doubted because the accusee is a respected member of the community. There are far fewer reasons for young people to lie about sexual abuse than there are for grown men to lie about not sexually abusing. Yet we have doubt about the victims, for some reason. I think a distrust of adults (especially men) who choose to work closely with children is in order, especially given the gendered nature of all child sexual abuse, and the fact that many abusers purposely seek out careers in which they will have regular contact with children. If that hurts the feelings of a non-criminal adult who innocently wants to help children, so be it.

[Toy Soldier]

I had a slight problem with your last sentences. The risks of false accusations of sexual abuse are not "real", or at the very least insignificant.

Not if you are male.

Making it appear as if men (or specifically those who work with children) should guard against the "very real" problem of false accusations is insulting to all of the "very real" victims whose allegations are doubted because the accusee is a respected member of the community.

Speaking as a “very real” victim, no it is not. While there certainly are instances where people get away with abuse because of their position in a community or their gender (such as being female), the overwhelming majority victims are not dissuaded from reporting their abuse because of any acknowledgement of false accusations. I would rather be disbelieved than have an innocent person accused, charged and convicted of a crime he did not commit.

There are far fewer reasons for young people to lie about sexual abuse than there are for grown men to lie about not sexually abusing.

Not really. In almost every instance of false accusations involving children, the child (usually female) did it to either gain attention or to cover up something. In some instances the child simply does not like the guy. In others it is a clear act of revenge. The point of lying about sexual abuse is that it gives the child power. So technically speaking they have many reasons to lie about sexual abuse. A man only has one: to avoid prison. What is true is that children are less inclined to lie about it, mostly because those generally are not the kinds of lies children tell.

I think a distrust of adults (especially men) who choose to work closely with children is in order, especially given the gendered nature of all child sexual abuse, and the fact that many abusers purposely seek out careers in which they will have regular contact with children.

Given the increase in female sexual predators, it would be foolish to assume men are more dangerous. Also, boys are at a greater risk for abuse outside of the family, i.e. teachers, coaches, priests, etc. than girls. Regardless of that, while some predators do seek out those kinds of careers, the vast majority of adults working with children are not predators. It is unfair to make that assumption. And this is coming from someone who not would put an ounce of trust in anyone five years old him only a few years ago.

If that hurts the feelings of a non-criminal adult who innocently wants to help children, so be it.

Then you should have no problem if I assume you are a child rapist. Of course, there is a distinct difference between being aware of who is around children and being paranoid and hyper-vigilant. I think once you become aware of that distinction you will understand my position.

[Fiona]

Catty, I am a good friend of a girl who was in Hugo's youth group a couple of years ago. Hugo was of course very appropriate with all the girls, but my friend said that all the girls loved to hug him and he seemed to love to hug them. He didn't just hug them either but would often hold them. My friend wondered, and I understand why, if Hugo was ever aroused by these girls who "climbed all over him."

I am not asking if Hugo seriously thinks about having a relationship with thge girls in his youth group. I asking if he ever gets a physical response (you know what I mean) to being in such close physical proximity to them as much as he is. He is very adored by a certain group of very young women who are eager fr his attention, and that has to have some effect. I don't think Hugo is a pedophile! I just want to know if he can be honest about this. I will have to wait until he gets back from his ranch.

[mythago]

Toy Soldier, you're apparently too young to remember the 'daycare scares' of the 1980s - where at least half of the people accused of sexual abuse of children were women.

To me "consent to whom" ought to be a key part of the law.

The reason for strict-liability age of consent laws is that we assume that people under a given age are too young to give meaningful consent to sex. It doesn't matter, Hugo, if a 16-year-old student literally throws herself at you; the law says that she is too young for her "Yes" to be meaningful.

So to say "it's OK if the adult is not all that old" makes no sense. Does the 16-year-old suddenly become more mature, more appreciative of the consequences of sex, more able to give real consent, if she is having sex with an 18-year-old instead of a 40-year-old?

[Kip Watson]

Fiona,

That's a pretty embarrassing question to ask, I wouldn't expect your friend to answer it. I certainly would advise him not to, as whatever he said is sure to be misconstrued or misrepresented by any third party.

But I'll tell you something about men, and pardon me if this is tasteless, I apologise also if I misunderstood the point of you question.

Getting a 'tingle' for a male -- a spark of physical sensation, or even more sometimes (especially in youthful or virile men) -- is an extremely common experience for most men. For some of us it happens in many different situations, it could be any time we're happy or feeling good in fact. But we get used to it, it doesn't have anything to do with actual sexual arousal, it's just how our bodies are wired.

Some guys can get a little turned on by a nice shiny automobile, for goodness sake! It doesn't mean anything. If you're perceptive, you might even notice this occasionally this in guys you know, but do yourself and those men a favour and don't read too much into it.

The problem is certain men, for a whole range of reasons, get serious mental problems related to sexual gratification, and so these automatic physical responses trigger something mental -- a misplaced sexual desire or maybe just a mental sickness that masquerades as desire.

That's one of the reasons I support strict censorship of p0rnogr@phic and depraved materials, to help young guys grow up healthy and normal, with a normal appreciation of what sexual arousal is and what it means.

Alas for a world that preaches the opposite to young men and women, better a millstone etc. etc...

[Fiona]

Hi Kip, I am not sure you and I know the same guys. I know you are a man and I am not, but the guys I know may like cars but they don't get turned on in the same way by cars as they do by girls!

I just know that most guys I've met get really turned on when pretty girls (or not so pretty girls, actually) hug them and hold on to them. Hugo not only admits on his blog he's very affectionate with both sexes, I've heard from my friend (who Hugo knows well) that he is very adored by some girls. It is not so much his looks but that he seems so loveing and kind and caring. And what makes me curious, sincerely, is whether or not he ever has to fight against a sexual response to the girls he calls his "kids".

Hugo when you read this you can email me, I will email you. But maybe you can make this a blog topic: Does attraction happen between adult men and teen girls? How do adult men handle it? I figure you might know, even though I am not inferring anything about you, Hugo, as a pedo.

[Kip Watson]

Ha ha, you're a funny one, Fiona.

By the way, look out. That's a feature men find very attractive!! :)

[Geo]

Does attraction happen between adult men and teen girls? How do adult men handle it?

I think that the answer relates a lot to how individual men view themselves, women and girls. Clearly, there can be a very, very unhealthy "power dynamic" which can result in young women being hurt and men doing things that are very wrong. (Perhaps in some situations men can be burnt by such relationships also.)

I suspect that there are also situations where it is wrong but in some ways it is more "sad" than "criminal" as insecure men are with very young women and girls.

Personally - I find teenage girls "cute", but not at all "attractive". I think that as a male in my 20's, teenage girls were definitely "attractive" to me and the temptation to get involved with them would have been limited by my fears of the law and their parents.

As I got gradually older I have found that it is much, much more important to relate as "an adult" and to recognize how hard that is to do with major age differences. I increasingly couldn't relate to a much younger women/girl in a way that would make a potential sexual relationship or other intimate tie feasible for me.

My wife is 11 1/2 years younger than I am now as an "old man" of 55. I find that age difference daunting at times.

I suspect as old as I am, some women in their late 20's or a little older might be attracted to me, but I'm safely far, far too old for teenagers to feel any desire for me.

I'm sure that for many men in their 20's to perhaps their 40's - there may be an appeal to a teenage girl. Not being an "alpha" male, I doubt that I can understand some of what might go on inside the mind and body of many "alpha" males.

Where at some level we as men view women as "conquests" or are insecure about our sexual attractiveness or being, I'd guess that teenage girls and attractions may be very different than I view them.

Thanks!

[The Gonzman]

Does attraction happen between adult men and teen girls? How do adult men handle it? I figure you might know, even though I am not inferring anything about you, Hugo, as a pedo.

I have been the subject of crushes by my daughter's friends before, and the trick is in both never giving an opportunity for a compromising situation (Not merely avoiding the oft spoken of "near occasion of sin" but the appearance of evil) and in letting them down easy, and without embarassment.

[Toy Soldier]

Does the 16-year-old suddenly become more mature, more appreciative of the consequences of sex, more able to give real consent, if she is having sex with an 18-year-old instead of a 40-year-old?

Does the 18-year-old? Honestly, is there any tangible difference their maturity level? I know we like to think there is, but most of the freshman going to my college now behave and think no differently than my 16-year-old foster brother. I think the difference is not just the child's maturity level, but the experience and maturity level of the "adult" (I do not think an 18-year-old is really an adult). A 2-year difference is negligible. A 24-year difference is not.

[Fiona]

Thanks, Geo, for a good answer. I will be interested in what Hugo has to say. I looked up what alpha male meant, and in some ways that is Hugo, I think. The bottom line is that reading this I have just one question, really, and I will frase it the way Hugo would:

Do male youth leaders like him behave because they don't have sexual desire, or do they have sexual desire but just control it? It makes a difference to me as an 18 year-old, and it was something my friend who was in his youth group always wondered.

[mythago]

A 2-year difference is negligible. A 24-year difference is not.

But the basis of statutory rape laws is not that one person is more mature; it's that the younger person is legally deemed incapable of meaningful consent. Otherwise, why don't we prosecute 45-year-olds who sleep with 19-year-olds? There's a 24-year age difference, but the 19-year-old is legally an adult--even if she's no more mature than your 16-year-old brother.

[Burton]

Air America has been trying to make a big deal out of this case. But they will never be ablke to compete with the Rove school of smearing.

[Hugo]

Wow,Fiona. I am catching up on my blog comments,sitting in the San Jose Airport at one of those little kiosks where you pay by the minute. In other words,I'm not going to write out a long reply here, but I've got one in mind I will try and get up tonight or tomorrow.

[Toy Soldier]

it's that the younger person is legally deemed incapable of meaningful consent.

That same younger person could be charged as an adult for any crime, so I do not think his capacity for meaningful consent goes very far.

[Geo]

I believe that an adult (male) working with teens often comes to such work out of a need within themselves. Whether that need relates to sexual attraction and related issues or is totally unrelated to that may depend a lot upon the individual man.

A lot of the potential danger in such interactions may relate to where men may appear to teens initially to be the latter, but turns out to be the former. Obviously there is also a clear potential vulnerability for most teens in such a situation which makes exploitation or simply unhealthy ties more likely than in situations where the ages are closer and/or the younger person is significantly older.

[Hugo]

Geo, if you want to argue that those of us who work with teens have our own needs to meet, I'll be right there with you. I have a huge longing to mentor -- and I have a particular love for folks in this age group. I also have a playful spirit that seems to mesh well with theirs.

We do have a general rule that it is best to have volunteer youth workers be at least 25. Any younger than that with high schoolers and it's a bit too close in age.

[Fred F]

There is a lot to this topic I think. Biologically, we could just compared our species to other species, particularly primates, to see if there are "perverted chimps" for example, or not (older male chimps doing it with "adolescent" chimps.) One interesting point is, older women who are pregnant nowadays are strongly encouraged to get their amniotic fluid tested to see if the baby they are carrying has any genes denoting birth defects. Younger women do not have to get their amniotic fluid tested when they are pregnant. The chart goes from age 18 into the womens' 40's. At 18 the chances are about zero for having a birth defect baby. It is a bell curve upwards towards the woman's oldest possible age of having babies, and the older women get, the greater their chance of having a baby with birth defects.

I would imagine high school aged girls do not give birth to birth defected babies either, although the chart only starts at age 18 (the chart I saw anyways.) So from a purely biological standpoint, there is nothing perverted about a middle aged man trying to make a baby with a high school (post puberty) aged girl. And men do not have to get tested of course, as semen is semen no matter what age the man is. (Although males are in their prime at age 18, which I think means in part that they have a higher semen "count" than older males.)

However, we are not animals. At least the generally accepted viewpoint is that we are more than animals, that we are moral animals and we believe in God and believe in our spirituality. So psychologically and spiritually, (the two are intermeshed, as the brain is often called the hardware of the soul,) it is perverted for a middle aged man to do it with a high school girl.

It would seem that sexual addiction is the real problem. It would seem pornography causes sexual addiction? That pornography somehow perverts the man's brain - turns him into that proverbial "dirty old (or young) man? And that if a man of any age is sexually addicted, his twisted thoughts may bring him to be attracted to high school girls, where he might not have been interested in them very much before his brain became corrupted by pornography.

However, because of the biological fact that young women make better mates due to the lower chance of birth defects in their babies, this would explain why you see a lot of older men with younger women - it would explainy why the physical characteristics of younger women (just look at all cosmetics and you'll see that they all really just attempt to make the woman look younger) would be attractive in the first place.

Then is the question - did the dirty old men really become corrupted in thinking by pornography, or were they out of touch with their desires prior to being exposed to the pornography.

There is question too that someone alluded to above, that if the older man has uncompleted psychological milestones from his high school part of his life, that it could all just be due to this - that it would be psychological.

The medical definition of pedophilia is pre-puberty girls (that pedofiles are attracted to) only. Not high school girls. However, western culture includes high school aged girls (illegal age - under 18) in it's popular categorization of pedophilia. Other cultures use the word only for pre-puberty girls which matches the medical use of the word.

So you can see the issue is complex. It really would take a PhD in sexuality to provide clear answers here I think. My own opinion is that there are real benefits to waiting until you are married to have sex. As I think it retains the innocence of your sexuality, which I think will (normal or not - which again depends entirely on how you define normal) keep you happy with having sex with your woman even when she is no longer young. And I think it will keep the man from having to avert his eyes from high school girls as he may not be as attracted to them if he retains his innocence (be it psychological or spiritual (or both.)) It is easy for people to think that virgins are really backwards. But I believe the more wild you get with your sexuality, the more you will be addicted to sex, which I think brings on such problems as being attracted to high school aged girls. You may indeed have saintly intentions towards wanting to help high school aged boys and girls. But such an addiction and loss of innocence will interfere.

[Hugo]

Fred, my wild and varied pre-conversion sexual past is no obstacle to my seeing my teenage charges as wonderful, amazing, boys and girls. A colorful history with adult women doesn't mean one will be any more drawn to teens than a man who has lived a life of monkish chastity.