« Sexual harassment on campus: CNN misreads the study | Main | Ten Views Meme »

January 25, 2006

Comments

John

As a friend said to me many years ago - "The plural of anecdote is not data".

bmmg39

"But the anecdotes of a small number of men, as serious as they are, are not evidence of a widespread pattern."

Again, how many more cases of males being victimized by SH go unreported because of society's views on male-on-female SH as opposed to the reverse? (And, yes, I agree that lots of male-on-female cases go unreported, too, but women are ENCOURAGED to report them.)

Anyone remember my story of what happened to me a year and a half ago at my music camp? The 65-year-old woman who tried to grab everyone's ass, including mine? That anecdote wasn't filed by the police department and won't appear in the annals and statistics anytime soon. I was angered by her sense of entitlement -- "I'M allowed!" -- just as women are by men who feel they have dominion over a woman's private areas for their own amusement. But if we're going to keep insisting that it's "just different" or it's "worse" when a male does it to a female, we're discouraging men who've been victimized by females from coming forward, because they'll be called "wimps" (or referred to with homophobic slurs) if they complain about sexual/physical attention that's unwanted.

They will never be seen as part of a "widespread pattern" if we keep telling them it's no big deal when it's happening to them.

The Gonzman

Hugo, there's a world of difference between the anger and backlash at getting zero percent of the budget, and a mean spirited wish to one-sidedly take from women.

Back in the day when I was in an abusive situation, as the abusee, I had nothing. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Bupkes. No place to go. Because I was a man, and my suffering was so small, and it became unimportant.

Wonder why there's so much talk about taking away half of the DV help for women? It's because until that talk started, there was no talk at all of throwing abused men so much as a crumb. That's what happens when you let the gender seperatists and gender supremacists dominate the discourse for so long.

And ya can't lay that one at our feet at all.

Mr. Bad

Gonz said: "Wonder why there's so much talk about taking away half of the DV help for women? It's because until that talk started, there was no talk at all of throwing abused men so much as a crumb. That's what happens when you let the gender seperatists and gender supremacists dominate the discourse for so long."

Exactly, but frankly, I'm all for starting with a bargaining position of diverting all funds from women's programs to men's, at least until some level of parity is achieved (all the time realizing that of course the PC establishment would never let this happen). Realizing that the end result of bargaining will be somewhere in between the starting position of each side, I suspect that from this initial starting position men might end up with at least a workable proportion of the available resources.

However, what I very strongly object to is any provision requiring that men's programs have to originate from already-established programs. Allowing feminist gatekeepers a role in establishing men's programs is like asking African American civil rights organizations to work with KKK chapters to implement civil rights programs.

evil_fizz

Would you kindly not make comparisons between feminists and the KKK? It's uncalled for.

Mr. Bad

You're right evil fizz, that's a fairly charged comparison - sorry if it bothers you. However, I honestly can't think of any other organization that is overtly against African American civil rights.

Noumena

What makes you say feminists are overtly against men's civil rights, though? The attitude I see from Hugo in this post and the other, for example, seems to be that harassment (similarly, domestic violence, etc.) should be seen as a problems that impact women much worse than they impact men, and thus funding for programs for female victims should be given a higher priority than funding for programs for male victims, etc. But this doesn't imply that no funding should be directed at the latter programs. Neither does this imply it can never ever be seen as a gender-neutral problem, warranting equal consideration and funding to victims of all genders.

None of the feminists I know would say male victims of domestic violence shouldn't have any resources they can turn to, nor would they say these men shouldn't be encouraged to come forward. Who can you identify as saying such things?

Brenna

So now I am really confused...funding for domestic violence should be exactly equal...should acheive parity in the words of Mr. Bad... but funding for college sports should be strictly proportional? Why shouldn't the same principle be applied in both areas, why shouldn't resources be allocated based on the number of individuals who need them?

Isn't it up to the men to demonstrate their "interest" in domestic violence services? Isn't it up to men to change their perception of domestic violence, their toleration of abusive women, the way that women had to change theirs, their toleration of abusive men?

CaptDMO

Point of order-
Can a clear position be made here concerning the authors distinction of

The soul-scarring crime of sexual harassment?
What constitutes sexual harasment?

Domestic violence?
What constitutes domestic violence?

Feminists that do not claim innocence for all women?
Feminists that hold that all men are potential rapists?

Where outright lies in anecdotal and statististical data fall?
Where MRAs hold issue with the above seperate issues?

Exactly which resources are being considered (or not)as subject to "zero sum"

SourAaron

The problem, Hugo, is that for some Feminists, to even acknowledge one case of woman on male harassment, is to put into question a theory that holds that group power relations should be the basis for justice, not individual circumstance. This is, of course, where even one anecdote that serves as a solitary counterexample to the proof can throw out an entire theory, in the same way that you can throw out a mathematical proof by citing a single counterexample.

In a new world where female on male harassment is recognized *even as a problem in some minority of cases* - you end up diverting a portion of a limited pool of funds, which to many feminists, is unacceptable.

Butterfingers

In a new world where female on male harassment is recognized *even as a problem in some minority of cases* - you end up diverting a portion of a limited pool of funds, which to many feminists, is unacceptable.

SourAaron - This is not a feminist position I am familiar with, and I read a lot of feminist writing, both academic and less formal.

Would you care to produce a cite for that? because as far as I know, most feminists acknowledge that the Patriarchy is a bad deal for men as well.... only a great deal worse for women.

What some feminists object to is the apparent demand by MRAs and such that feminist organizations handle domestic violence against men, sexual harassment against men etc. You think men suffer from sexual harassment? get organized! open a hotline! Domestic violence? build shelters! solicit donations! That's what women did. That's what women still do. And it does not make the issue of SH and DV against men any less of a problem - it makes it a different problem. It's like...fighting cancer does not mean neglecting the battle against AIDS and vice versa.

alexander

I'd give you that women harass men in different ways than men harass women. For example, on the campus I attend, a fashion among many women is to wear sweat pants which have some word written along the seat of the pants. The purpose seems to be: "Hey guys (and lesbians?), look at my firm (or flabby) buttocks!" Of course, if a guy is stupid enough to fall for this tease, then he's (horrors!) sexually harassing her!

Now, I consider this a form of harassment. A woman is intruding her buttocks into my space, so to speak. Supposing in sexual harassment polls we were to include such behavior as women wearing sexually explicit clothing? Then a different picture would emerge.

Or what about such female behavior as flirting, teasing or playing hard to get? Or expecting a man to pick up the check? We have "date rape". Why not "date prostitution"? Are there any date prostitutes on this site? How do you justify your harassing men in this way?

It is a fact that feminists are largely defining "sexual harassment". Why not allow a reasonable man to define "sexual harassment"?

Hugo

Alexander, you are walking close to the line of getting banned with the term "date prostitutes"...

As far as the sexual harassment and women's clothing goes, check out this post I wrote: http://hugoboy.typepad.com/hugo_schwyzer/2005/10/no_right_not_to_1.html

bmmg39

"What some feminists object to is the apparent demand by MRAs and such that feminist organizations handle domestic violence against men, sexual harassment against men etc. You think men suffer from sexual harassment? get organized! open a hotline! Domestic violence? build shelters! solicit donations!"

Great! Do we get some of the public money that women's shelters and hotlines get, or are you going to tell us we're on our own?

"And it does not make the issue of SH and DV against men any less of a problem - it makes it a different problem."

It's not a DIFFERENT problem. We won't get far if we're arguing which is the larger problem, as they're part of the SAME problem.

"I'd give you that women harass men in different ways than men harass women. For example, on the campus I attend, a fashion among many women is to wear sweat pants which have some word written along the seat of the pants."

I wouldn't put revealing or suggestive ways of dressing in the same category as grabbing someone's rear. I'm more focused on the overt ways in which women SH men than the subtle ones.

Mr. Bad

Butterfinger wrote: "What some feminists object to is the apparent demand by MRAs and such that feminist organizations handle domestic violence against men, sexual harassment against men etc. You think men suffer from sexual harassment? get organized! open a hotline! Domestic violence? build shelters! solicit donations! That's what women did. That's what women still do."

Yes, but you're speaking as if you believe that women did all this on their own, with no help at all from men. You surely can't believe this is true do you? Men were there from the beginning - and are still there - building the shelters, helping raisefund , providing funding, etc. Sure, we don't get to work in most shelters, but that doesn't mean that we're not helping.

Thus, in light of the fact that men provided a substantial amount of help to women for decades, it's time for women to do the right and honorable thing and return the favor. Add to that the requirement in the proposed renewal of VAWA that men's DV orgs must work with established groups (read: womens' DV orgs) and this reciprocity becomes mandatory. Further, if this reciprocity is imposed on men's groups then it needs to be respectful of men's concerns and needs, and thus, the men need to be dealt with on our own terms. We men who helped you didn't (and don't) dictate to you when we were (are) helping you, so you shouldn't do so to us now. This is particularly important because men who have tried to set up a shelters for men (like Gonz) have described the kind of 'help' they recieved from the local women's shelter establishment/mafia in their areas, and their experiences have been that those women have been 'less than helpful.' Thus, women need to be extra careful and sensitive to the fact that men have not had good experiences to date working with women's DV advocates, but also that there needs to be some kind of oversight of those women's groups if men are required to work with them.

alexander

Alexander, you are walking close to the line of getting banned with the term "date prostitutes"...

What is the problem? We have the term, "date rape" which many men find objectionable. Is only men's behavior to be stigmatized?

The comments to this entry are closed.

My Photo

Regular reads

Blog powered by Typepad
Member since 01/2004