One last post on older men, younger women: a reply to "Emily"

I do pay attention to what search terms folks use to find this site.  Over the past six months, one theme has continued to bring dozens and dozens of folks here every single day:  "older men, younger women."   Perhaps these searchers hope to find pornographic images, but I suspect that most of them are looking for more information and discussion.

Here are my two main posts on the subject:

Older Men, Younger Women, and Integrity

More on Older Men, Younger Women, a long response to Kate

As with "Kate", I fairly regularly get e-mails asking for advice.  This one arrived today:

Hi i noticed u helped out "Kate" well i have a similar problem but not quite the same, i posted a comment on the bottom of "Kate's" problem but here it is again exactly how i wrote it on comments page:

hey i had an un-fortunate relationship with a man of 52 when i was only 15 (UK by the way) it turn into a sexual relationship before i hit 16, all of this happened without my parents knowing, but then they found out and it went to court as a pedophile case, it was then drummed into me how much of a b*****d this man was so i ended up hating him for having sex with me before it was legal. despite all this i thought i was in love with him at the time that's why i did it. i know now that it was just infatuation. but my problem now is ever since this happened i have found myself attracted to the much older man (being 40's early 50's) i don't know why and it may be just lust but can someone please give me some advice, I'm 17 now by the way, i don't think I'm abnormal but i just would like to hear someone elses opinion.

i don't even know if i was meant to send it to you but the website wasn't very clear so i just saw an e-mail address an thought I'd send it.

thank you for your time

"Emily"

First off, let me be very clear that I am a college history and gender studies professor, not a licensed psychologist.  I think most folks are clear on this, and I'm sure "Emily" is too, but it bears repeating.  At the same time, I don't want to blow off what I assume is a sincere appeal for help, so I'll reply in this public forum.

Second off:  It's almost universally accepted that our early experiences help shape our adolescent and adult desires.  It's not at all uncommon for victims of sexual abuse (which in a legal and moral and spiritual sense, Emily surely is) to report having enjoyed certain aspects of the abuse.  Mutual pleasure, as I've argued before, doesn't mitigate the harm done to the victim of the abuse.  Indeed, it may even compound the problem, as a survivor of molestation who experienced some enjoyment during the abuse may be more likely to assign herself responsibility for what happened to her.

In Emily's case, she finds herself attracted to men who meet the profile of her abuser.  This is also perfectly understandable.    If she wants reassurance that she is "normal" and "okay", I see no reason not to give her that.  Given her experiences, her emotional and physical desires make sense, and she certainly ought not to experience shame or guilt as a consequence.  But desires are not a justification for action!  I believe that 17 is old enough for legal consent in the UK, but it doesn't mean that Emily is equipped to handle another sexual or romantic relationship with a man two or three decades her senior.   Emily may imagine that at 17 (as opposed to 15) she is more mature, more experienced, and better prepared for such a relationship.  She may even (and I say "may") fantasize that she can heal the damage done by her previous lover if she can have a successful relationship with a man of similar age to her abuser.  She wouldn't be the first survivor of abuse to have such a fantasy; therapists' offices are filled with women and men who continually re-enact (invariably unhappily) these childhood traumas.

I'm going to ask Emily (and anyone else in her position) to reread the advice I gave to "Kate" last May, particularly the bit about doing what is so difficult to do in adolescence: wait.  And I'm going to say this as well:

Any man in his thirties, forties, or above who has a sexual relationship with an adolescent girl is a criminal.  Now, that may not always be true legally, but in my book, it's always true spiritually and morally.   A man in his forties might say of Emily, "She's of legal age" (which she is in the UK), "and she knows what she wants; it's absurd to say I'm a criminal for giving her what she wants.  What about Emily's agency?"  Emily's own letter makes it clear that she badly misjudged her abuser when she was 15, and though she might like to believe otherwise, it's unlikely that she has become a substantially wiser and more effective judge of character in the space of two years.  Frankly, as an adult who works with teens, I don't trust their desires, knowing how volatile they are.  A good man, a kind man, a "together" man in the age range that Emily finds attractive will set clear and healthy boundaries with her.  Her desires do not give him permission to engage with her in what will be, I'm convinced, a sad and painful re-enactment of her earlier abuse.

Male sexual fantasy -- particularly in pornography -- is filled with narratives of seductive Lolita figures who captivate and seduce much older men.  The fantasy goes like this:  perfectly nice and respectable thirty or forty-something man encounters niece/daughter of friend/student/what-have you, an apparently virginal girl in her teens.  In these fantasy scenarios, played out in countless erotic short stories and even in what passes for serious literature, it is always the adolescent girl who pursues the initially reluctant older man.  He generally makes some protestations, trying to convince his pursuer that she's too young, that it isn't right, but she persists and invariably gets her way.   The intensity of the girl's desire gives the adult man in the story (and by proxy, the male reader) permission to cross the line drawn by both the state and common sense.   The story usually ends happily (Nabokov excepted), with the girl enthusiastically grateful for her sexual awakening and the man thrilled with this guilt-free fantasy!

Barf.  Seriously, barf.  The fact that so many men (and not a few young women) find compelling elements in this fantasy doesn't make it okay to act upon.    Girls like Emily may look "grown-up", they may claim to be active sexual agents and not passive victims, but for all their apparent maturity and aggression they are still girls, girls who ought to arouse a paternal and protective response in any man biologically old enough to be their father!  While Emily might long for an older man, I can assure her that any man in his thirties, forties, or fifties who takes her to bed when she is still a teen is not himself emotionally or spiritually capable of offering her anything of enduring value.  Indeed, though she may plead her own agency to the high heavens, he is still a predator, even if he deludes himself into believing that it was he who was pursued.

I think I've said my peace on this subject.  Emily, best of luck.  I'll pray for you.

Comments

[Mr. Bad]

Actually Hugo, I need to set the record straight re. this type of pornography: There's a significant sector of the pornography market that caters to the fantasies of older women 'doing' their sons' (and daughters') male friends (e.g., the "Hot Moms" series), so laying all the shame and guilt on the older man/young girl model seems disingenuous to me. You could make your scenarios and comments gender-neutral and deliver the same message without the implied double-standard. Plus, it would be applicable to a larger audience, i.e., younger men who are confused and/or questioning due to being used/abused by older women.

You might consider being more inclusive, thereby broadening your potential audience.

[Amba]

Mr. Bad, 'hot moms' type porn is aimed at young men, not older women. The women are the object of desire, not the audience. If you don't believe me, go to google, type in 'milf,' and take a look at what comes up. There's a real predatory strain in the younger man/older woman dynamic in porn: the implication is that older women are needy and desperate enough to welcome the attention of teenagers.

[crella]

You start off by saying you're not a psychologist, then go on to analyze Emily's relationship with an older man.

'It's almost universally accepted that our early experiences help shape our adolescent and adult desires. It's not at all uncommon for victims of sexual abuse (which in a legal and moral and spiritual sense, Emily surely is) to report having enjoyed certain aspects of the abuse. '

I think the majority of childhood abuse victims would disagree...

'In Emily's case, she finds herself attracted to men who meet the profile of her abuser.'

I think her account shows us that she was attracted to older men from the start.

She is resonsible for her own actions. Women are not so stupid that they can be 'abused ' for months (in this case clandestine meetings for sex) and not know it. I suggest you crack some psychology books before you answer a post of this nature again. You do not understand the mental state of someone actually abused.

[sophonisba]

Women are not so stupid that they can be 'abused ' for months (in this case clandestine meetings for sex) and not know it.

Fifteen year-old girls are not adult women. However, girls and women alike have as much right to be stupid and are as likely to be stupid as anyone else in the world, seeing as how they are individual humans, not robots or fantasies.

Furthermore, if she was not actually abused, she must be "so stupid" (in your terms) as to be easily convinced by her parents that she was. But you don't believe it is possible for a fifteen year old to be stupid, so you have a difficulty there. If you believe that her hatred of the man in question is a construct, there's as much evidence to suggest that her earlier "love" was a false construct as well. Selecting the former option because it appeals to you more is not logical.

[crella]

' But you don't believe it is possible for a fifteen year old to be stupid'

That's not what I said, but go ahead and take half of what I said to make a point...

I am sick and tired of this 'women are abused and don't know it' line. It implies extreme stupidity to take abuse and 'not know it'...is it even humanly possible? Most people, when abused, recoil from the abuse, distance themselves from the perpetrator, become unhappy.

Someone cracks you across the face, you need to be TOLD by someone that it's wrong? This was consensual sex, by all accounts. Although 15, she should take responsibility for her own actions.

[sophonisba]

I am sick and tired of this 'women are abused and don't know it' line.

She wasn't a woman, and she does know she was abused. Read her email.

Someone cracks you across the face, you need to be TOLD by someone that it's wrong?

Yes, that's right, you do. Perhaps you, personally, are so lucky that you grew up in an era, in a country, or in a family where it was common knowledge that parents do not beat their children with God and justice behind them and that boyfriends and husbands do not sit in a position of judgment over their girlfriends and wives that allows them to dole out physical punishment, and that adolescent girls are not fitting sexual objects for men of their grandparents' generation until they've grown up enough to make a free and uncoerced choice. Perhaps you were only lucky enough to get that knowledge when you grew up, or from the wider culture, or from only some of the people you knew. Still, that you have it at all makes you lucky. I was lucky like that too. Let's congratulate ourselves for being so lucky, and sneer at adolescent girls who aren't as clever as we are.

Or we could choose to not be that kind of asshole. I pick option B.

Although 15, she should take responsibility for her own actions.

Of course that's exactly what she's doing, by trying to figure out if following her immediate sexual impulses is wise or foolhardy, and by trying to determine how much of her sexual self is determined by early conditioning and whether that can or should be fought. Again, that's in her email.

[Lynn Gazis-Sax]

I think the majority of childhood abuse victims would disagree...

I'm not sure just what the majority of childhood abuse victims are supposed to be disagreeing with - that there was ever anything pleasurable in the experience, or that the experience as a whole was pleasurable? Big difference. Maya Angelou's autobiography includes an incident in which she was abused (as a very young girl) by her mother's boy friend. It starts with her being flattered by his paying attention to her (in a "kid likes adult attention" way, not a "kid is aware of her sexual power" way), and then proceeds to an act of violent rape against a child. So, even in that story, there was something pleasurable in the experience, but the experience as a whole was one of painful abuse.

Also, I'm not sure "It's not at all uncommon for victims of sexual abuse" should equate to "the majority of victims of sexual abuse." It might well be the case that most victims of sexual abuse find the experience both physically and emotionally unpleasant, while a significant minority find it physically pleasurable and emotionally devastating. I'm not saying that's actually true - just that it's a logically possible situation in which both Hugo's statement and yours would be true.

At any rate, a fifteen-year-old is not a woman, and isn't in a position to set boundaries for a 52-year-old man. Saying that fifteen-year-olds aren't in a position to consent to sex with 52-year-olds is not at all the same thing as saying that women are too stupid to know what abuse is.

[chime]

crella, I do not believe that you yourself know anything about abuse victims.
It is a common misconception that "abuse" means getting whacked across the face. Now, if that really was the case, doncha think there would be a whole less victims, as most people would have their survival instinct kick in and leave.

Here is a little lesson for you, hopefully you'll learn to research the subject you acuse the author of the post of not knowing.
As a survivor or spousal abuse, I can say from experience that it does not start that way, but quite the contrary. It starts with lots of extremely flattering things, as abusers can turn on the charm when they need to. So you get sucked into a relationship, because the abuser banks on the victims qualities of empathy, maternal instinct, compassion, and heaps the adoration.
Then, slowly, it begins to show - the demands, ever so sublte, so you don't really notice, because at first it's a little thing, very normal, like folding the laundry a particular way, then it's the way you hang up the shower head, until gradually you realize that your whole life is controlled and you do things you normally wouldn't agree to. And to all this add a continual brain-washing of "you wanted it yourself, I never made you do any of these things" and you got yourself a glorious mind-fuck out of which it's really hard to get out. He never laid a finger on me, though he threw things around, but I almost feel that physical abuse could trigger the "flee" response while the mental is always so much more complicated. That's for the "women are not stupid enough to get sucked into abuse and not know it". Wake up, there are many women who do "get sucked into" abuse, and we are not stupid.

In cases of child abuse, it's even worse, because in most countries there is an innate "listen to your elders" dynamic working against a child trying to figure out what is the right thing to do. A kid likes attention from an adult, so the adult twists it into "this young woman wants to have sex with me" to satisfy his insecurities and fantasies. That is sick.

When the matter concerns money, we go to a specialist, someone with experience. When it's our health, we go to a specialist, someone who knows more than we do, as well. When it's relationships, which is arguably a more complicated matter than money and a more dangerous thing to mess with than one's health, it's "oh, she knew what she was getting into." Or, to be fair, "he knew what he was getting into." HOW?

It is ALWAYS the person with more experience who must be responsible for judging the situation. Just because a kid says he wants chocolate cake for breakfast, doesn't mean an adult should give him that. When a 15 year old presumably wants sex (and that sort of thing, again, I know by myself, one could be brain-washed and coersed into) from a 40 year old man, that should not mean he should give it to her.

I wish people would stop condoning teenage abuse under the guise of "liberating women."

[karla]

At 18 I went out with a man 8 years older than me and another 20 years older than me. Later on, I've had a steady relationship that has turned to marriage with a man a decade older.

I also dated plenty of young men my own age.

I would say all the men, no matter the age, were good looking, charming and funny. I made little distrinction between a young fellow of 19 and one of 27. For me, it was just about meeting someone fun and enjoying my time with them.

I persued all of the older men actively more than the other way around. I saw nothing wrong with it as I was of legal age and attracted to them.

I do not consider myself in any way weird, a victim or anything wrong. Any young woman would like to date a Tom Cruise look alike, wouldn't they? Same for me. Upon finding a good looking, charming man I paid little attention to the number attached to his age.

As long as it's legal I see no issues.

[Caitriona]

Women are not so stupid that they can be 'abused ' for months (in this case clandestine meetings for sex) and not know it

Actually, there have been women who've been abused for years and not acknowledged it. If it's what they think life is supposed to be like, they won't see it as being wrong that they are being treated that way. It has nothing to do with intelligence or stupidity.

[Hans Side]

Hugo says : "Any man in his thirties, forties, or above who has a sexual relationship with an adolescent girl is a criminal."

Well, for once Hugo we agree completely!

The difference, of course, is in consistency.

Hans Side says : "Any person in his or her thirties, forties, or above who has a sexual relationship with an adolescent person is a criminal."

[cathy]

Aristotle very effectively defined man (includes women) as the 'rational amimal'. The animal part is good to remember.

[foxy]

I met a man who was in his 50's and I'm 19, I've always been attracted to men in they're 50's and 60's. I just don't find anything fair with boys my age because they are so imature and my family always judge them...

sense I'm going out with a man who's much older then I am I have had more respect in many ways that I couldn't find with boys my age. *yes even on a sexural level* I acturl feel attractive and buetieful...he tells me how gorgues i look....

seriuosly boys my age have ADD and will grow tired...

sorry to be so wierd...but I'm doing nothing moraly wrong..I'm legal!!

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[Chantelle]

THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OLDER MEN DATING YOUNGER WOMEN AND OLDER MEN ASSAULTING GIRLS. Sometimes people get the two twisted. As a woman who is attracted to women, I am quite fond of older ladies. I think they are insanely sexy. So I imagine SOME younger women might feel the same about older men. I do not share this desire in the least to be quite honest. I think most women as girls, whether it be cultural or societal or whatnot, are spoon fed the idea that older men offer security. We are also told that younger men stray and don't mature as fast. As a woman of 24 years I have to be brutally honest here. There isn't any amount of money, or cultural spoon feeding that could make an older man look good to me. Take a look at some of the most successful, older and beautiful women and their men are about 20 years their junior. It seems like once a woman is financially and emotional secure she looks for younger men and often women...interesting.

Not a fan of dating older men myself obviously. I personally believe women age more gracefully. Not to be rude, it's just my opinion. I am also not a fan of being controlled. The older men I dated in the far far past came with a string of insecurities and were way too controlling, and I'm not interested in dating a salary cap either. And of course they were insecure because younger guys are WAY hotter. Did you think women didn't care about looks? Sorry to all the older men who put so much money into making movies with fatter, older "funnier" guys getting hot young women but I've seen your movies and I still don't want you. Your 21 year old son, however, is looking rather good and oh by the way, you probably should have stuck it out with his mother because she has more of a chance of getting me into bed than you do.

And take a look at the list of millionaire's these days, folks under 24 are hitting millions with a rising number of women, so ladies you may want to reconsider your idea of security. Because these days it's coming in many shapes and forms that are more... attractive.