Porn, youth, and optimism

Interesting article in this past Saturday in the Los Angeles Times:  Just the Facts of Life Now.  The subtitle: "Pornography is so common in the Digital Age that teens see it as 'part of the culture'.  If it's corrupting them, the data don't show it yet."

It's not an editorial piece, simply a report on what (to older adults) is the remarkable, and perhaps disturbing, availability to the young of sexually explicit material via the Internet and other "new media":

It's online, on cable, on cellphone cameras, in chat rooms, in instant messages from freaks who go online and trawl children's Web journals, on cam-to-cam Web hookups, on TV screens at parties where teens walk past it as if it were wallpaper, in lectures about abstinence in Sunday school and in health class, in movies, in hip-hop lyrics like the one blaring from the loudspeaker as they lined up for pizza and burritos.

"Pornography," shrugged Scott Timsit, a dark-haired 16-year-old in wire-rimmed glasses, "is just part of the culture now. It's almost like it's not even, like, porn."

I love that last line.  For earlier generations of young men and women, pornography was, perhaps, much more exciting -- if only because it was so much more difficult to acquire.  The illicitness that the word "porn" ought to conjure up isn't there for teens like Scott; its ubiquitiousness has, perhaps, robbed it of its allure.  That might, I suppose end up being a very good thing. 

That doesn't mean that a negative impact can't be found.  The Times reporter spoke, separately, to groups of girls and boys about the impact of explicit material on their lives:

Asked whether Internet pornography and sexually charged cable content had influenced the messages they got from the larger culture, they exploded.

"For one thing, it causes girls to think they need makeovers," said Kirstin Williams, a 15-year-old blond in sweatpants and a hoodie. "Like, I know people who are considering plastic surgery."

"You're supposed to have skinny thighs, big [breasts], flat stomachs," said Amy Liu, 14, brushing her long, dark hair behind one ear. "But then if you're fortunate to have that kind of body naturally, then they call you anorexic…. You can't win."

Across the lawn, a table of boys explained that girls weren't the only confused ones.

"You get the message that that kind of sex is glamorous, that you should be with these skinny blond types," said Timsit.

"And that sex should be unemotional," said Brad Spitzer, 17, wolfing down a plate of El Pollo Loco. "But then my mother gave me, like, this moral talk about how porn is all immoral."

In this brief interview, it seems as if the focus is entirely on the girls' bodies, and the impact of silicone-enhanced porn actresses on adolescent sensibilities.  I wonder, though, if young men don't also experience some anxiety about their own bodies -- and the performance of those bodies -- as a result of viewing porn. 

This week in youth group at All Saints, we'll start to approach the subject of sexuality (something that will take us several weeks.)  I'm going to make sure we weave in some time for a discussion of the impact of porn on the lives of our teens.  Rather than lecturing, I want to make sure we hear their experiences and their responses.  I want to ensure that we don't minimize the potentially destructive impact of pornography, but at the same time, it's vital that we avoid doing what Brad Spitzer's mother did, and giving a "moral talk about how porn is all immoral." 

As both a historian and a youth leader, I'm wary of the age-old cultural anxiety about the corruption of the young.  It is almost axiomatic that every generation of parents worries that contemporary adolescents are under an unprecedented barrage of immorality.  That doesn't mean that today's cultural messages are harmless, of course.  But I do think that we make a mistake when we continually underestimate adolescent resilience.   They are not sheep.  The sexual and moral decision-making of the young is not something over which the culture has complete control.  Indeed, the vulgarity of contemporary society coexists with what some scholars see as a growing restraint on the part of today's teens.

Adults always think kids today are worse, or more sexual or more promiscuous, " said Mike Males, a lecturer in sociology at UC Santa Cruz and the author of "Framing Youth: Ten Myths About the Next Generation." "But most of the measures of that are at all-time lows.

This is the same point made by David Brooks in his excellent article last weekend: Public Hedonism, Private Restraint.  I certainly don't share all of Brooks' views, but I do share his essential optimism about the young and his assertion that relatively few young people are interested in taking sides in the cultural struggle that so captivates their elders:

But today's young people appear not to have taken a side in this war; they've just left it behind. For them, the personal is not political. Sex isn't a battleground in a clash of moralities.

They seem happy with the frankness of the left and the wholesomeness of the right. You may not like the growing influence of religion in public life, but the lives of young people have improved. You may not like the growing acceptance of homosexuality, but as it has happened heterosexual families have grown healthier.

Just lie back and enjoy the optimism.

(Perhaps I should subtitle my blog "The frankness of the left, the wholesomeness of the right".  What do y'all think?)

I do think our teens need guidance. I do think they need help picking their way through the overwhelmingly disturbing and confusing cultural messages.  But I think they need less explicit direction, and more unconditional love, cheerleading, and support.  And when it comes to counteracting what many of us still see as the pernicious effects of porn, we have to be willing to listen to what the kids are really telling us about its impact on their lives.  We have to be willing to suspend our agendas.  And we have to be careful not to overestimate their own obsession with sex.  As the Times article concludes:

(Many teens) said their main complaint about porn was that their parents continually accused them of downloading it when they were in fact indulging their real passion: playing gory online computer games.

Comments

[djw]

Perhaps I should subtitle my blog "The frankness of the left, the wholesomeness of the right"

That's a great idea, except for the fact that for much of the right, anti-gay bigotry is central to their conception of wholesomeness.

Otherwise, another great post. Jeremiads about a cultural descent into immorality are just simply reflexive for so many people, and it's not just conservatives. We need collectively knock it off if we want to soberly confront the challenges we actually face.

[mythago]

"For one thing, it causes girls to think they need makeovers," said Kirstin Williams, a 15-year-old blond in sweatpants and a hoodie. "Like, I know people who are considering plastic surgery."

And does she actually believe that her friends get this idea from porn?

Regardless of what one thinks of porn, I doubt Kirstin and her friends thought their bodies were fine until they read Playboy. Unless teen-girl magazines have changed enormously from my day, they are not showing young women with realistic bodies; they have not stopped encouraging young women to diet, wear makeup, and focus on their looks above all else. Girls' magazines rarely show cute boys in the cover; they show young, thin, usually white girls who are the exemplars of How You Should Look. Go to seventeen.com and the home page has articles on figuring out your BMI and "finding your style", plus a story called "Rock Your Body" tracking the progress of girls in losing weight.

And again, unless things have changed significantly since my teen years (we had to flatten our own papyrus back then), girls don't like to be told that it's the magazines they happily read that are feeding their bad self-image. We already don't like the fact that our boyfriend likes to look at other naked women, so let's blame that instead of the stuff we like.

[Amanda]

The right's wholesomeness is a myth you should try to avoid--wanting to restrain female sexuality and shame girls about it is not "wholesome".

[Anne]

Another good post, Hugo.

I don't know, not being a parent, but it does seem to me that if I had children, I'd rather they were downloading porn than playing violent computer games.

(Well, okay, I'd rather they did neither. But sex is preferable to violence, even though I don't care for the way porn presents sex.)

[Amanda Marcotte]

Also, what myth said. I saw porn as a teenager but wasn't impressed by it. Magazines and TV had a much worse impact on my image of myself, since porn actresses tend to be presented as fantasy and models and actresses are sold as something for the audience to aspire to.

[Troy]

"I do think they need help picking their way through the overwhelmingly disturbing and confusing cultural messages. But I think they need less explicit direction, and more unconditional love, cheerleading, and support. And when it comes to counteracting what many of us still see as the pernicious effects of porn, we have to be willing to listen to what the kids are really telling us about its impact on their lives. We have to be willing to suspend our agendas."

I think that young people need more guidance than you might, but I think I agree with you in general. And I very much like the way you emphasize love and support and the importance of restraint and active listening.

Tough stuff! Especially if you have great anxieties about pornography, about destructive messages regarding body image (for young men, too! something that seems to be demonstrably growing) and on and on.

There is so much to fear. Maybe all one can do is what one truly must, and then beyond that have faith (else become a control freak).

Troy
http://chickenpax.blogspot.com/

[becken]

The real threat of porn is that it allows a man to feel like a man without having to actually give himself to the relationship. He gets off on some image, or some cyber woman telling him what a man, what an animal he is...and then he's done. Porn doesn't require anything of him; he doesn't actually have to bring the strength of his masculinity to her at all.

So then when it comes to real world relationships, he is lost and intimidated. Real women come with REAL needs and desires, but he has spent himself on the false lovers and has no strength to offer - or believes that what he does have to offer is not enough. And thus he gets sucked right back into the porn addiction - with porn it is easy to feel like a man, to satisfy the woman, to satisfy himself.

The issue with porn is much less a moral one than it is a matter of life and death. To live life to the full, as Jesus has offered, one cannot be spending oneself on false loves. Real life is bloody and messy and hard. But ultimately, it is the only thing that brings joy and satisfaction.

[Amanda Marcotte]

The real threat of porn is that it allows a man to feel like a man without having to actually give himself to the relationship. He gets off on some image, or some cyber woman telling him what a man, what an animal he is...and then he's done. Porn doesn't require anything of him; he doesn't actually have to bring the strength of his masculinity to her at all.

One solution is for men to quit asking that women turn ourselves over to the project of defining what men are and actually take responsibility for yourselves. Granted, the sex-positive, feminist view does have the downside, where men have to relinquish power. But the sex is better once you quit investing your entire manhood in it--I promise.

[Dave Rattigan]

"That article was kinda strange," he said, taking another sip of black coffee. "It read like a parody. Perhaps just badly written, or maybe it was there for style and effect and I missed it!" He rolled his eyes and gave a cheeky grin.

"Not that I disagree with it," he said, flicking back his gingery hair. "I think the best thing Christians could do is to start to be open about sexuality, and try to get kids to appreciate the difference between erotic and pornographic. Christians are so scared of talking frankly about sexual matters, hardcore porn is the only available alternative to simply never talking about sex and sexuality, especially in its sensual, physical aspects."

[bmmg39]

mythago: "Regardless of what one thinks of porn, I doubt Kirstin and her friends thought their bodies were fine until they read Playboy."

Perhaps you should have included quotation marks around the word "read," there. [wink]

[bmmg39]

I'm on board with saying that many -- perhaps most -- of this world's problems can be traced to the fact that everything in society is based on physical appearance, sex and gender roles. In college, I was unhappy because I was hoping to find someone to walk around campus with, locked arm in arm, exchanging occasional cheek-kisses, whereas so many others wanted to make out with strangers at keg parties. (And that was on a relatively TAME campus.) I'm not judging their decisions; I know I'm the odd one out. But it's still the same today. With everyone worshipping sex -- both the kind with love and the kind without -- there's not much room for me.

I completely recognize the superiority of the erotic (sex with love and emotion) to the pornographic (sex without love and emotion), but I would feel more at home in a world that didn't place sex at the center of everything in the universe. And I wouldn't be quite as lonely as I am, and perhaps always will be.

[Urania]

"I completely recognize the superiority of the erotic (sex with love and emotion) to the pornographic (sex without love and emotion), but I would feel more at home in a world that didn't place sex at the center of everything in the universe."

Amen to that.

I was reading a feminist mag the other day and was astounded at how much of it was focused on sexual pleasure. Yeah, that nice and all, but when did the majority of youth-oriented feminism become about buying toys to shove up wet genitals and the sexiness of lip gloss? I wish young feminists would think a little bit less about moistening their vaginas and a lot more about how they are losing the small pieces of civil rights their foremothers fought for because there's no such thing as women orgasming themselves into political, economic, and social equality with men.

mythago, why can't teen magazines and pornography both negatively affect the self image of girls? You didn't grow up with the internet like today's girls are growing up.

Amanda, from Jenna Jameson to Pam Anderson to Paris Hilton, porn stars are what many girls growing up today aspire to. These are the faces on the covers of magazines, including teen magazines. Just this week there was a poll showing msny young girls most wanted to look like Britney Spears, Beyonce and Paris Hilton.

There was a story circulating a few months ago where beautiful young women were bringing porn magazines to plastic surgeons and getting their genitals cut and sewn to resemble the pictures. Porn is clearly destructive to women as a society-wide phenomena and pointing out other things destructive to women doesn't change porn's destructiveness, it adds to it and each exaggerates the other's effects, like alcohol and valium taken together.

[mythago]

the erotic (sex with love and emotion) to the pornographic (sex without love and emotion)

So, what's sex without romantic love but with emotion? I also have to admit that I find it kind of weird to refer to sex without love as 'pornographic,' as though you had to have a Webcam present.

Urania, I grew up with the easy availability of porn. Back in the old, pre-Web days, when we had to read our porn around the fire at the front of the cave, believe me, there was porn. It simply isn't that hard for a teenage girl to read a copy of Dad's or brother's Playboy because, remember, that used to be respectable 'intellectual' magazine. It sure wasn't hard for teenage boys to pass pictures around the schoolyard.

Girls don't avidly devour suicidegirls.com the way they do teen girls' magazines and websites. They don't get fashion tips, weight-loss information or what Orlando Bloom is really thinking from porn. Whatever they 'aspire to' right now, mass media aimed at teenage girls is telling them what they should look like right now. And it's not a healthy message.

Just this week there was a poll showing msny young girls most wanted to look like Britney Spears, Beyonce and Paris Hilton.

You just said that girls want to look like porn stars. Britney Spears and Beyonce are not 'porn stars'. Paris Hilton had an amateur movie she took with her boyfriend put out on the Internet. That's not exactly being a 'porn star.' She is, however, a rich girl who's famous for being famous.

[Lynn Gazis-Sax]

Porn in my day (pre-web, caves, rolled our own papyrus, just like myth says) wasn't so much super hard to get as super easy to avoid. I saw exactly one Playgirl my whole time in high school, and no X-rated movies (only two R-rated ones). I didn't have to filter ads out of my email box, as I do now, or see porn sites turning up on innocent genealogy searches for my "Cumming" line (oops! wrong line to try searching in Google). Or have my whole web browser taken over by a Trojan, filled up with porn and gambling links, and the home page set to a porn site (has happened to us twice).

This doesn't mean, of course, that I was totally sexually sheltered; it means that I, personally, prefer my sex-oriented material written, so I would read "Lady Chatterley's Lover" or "The Group" or, for information, "The Hite Report," but wouldn't go even slightly out of my way to look at pictures. I'm sure my more picture-oriented classmates didn't have any more difficulty getting hold of Playboy and the like than I had reading books with sex in them.

[Urania]

Playboy is not nearly Bang Bus, or those vomit-inducing pornos, or the 100 men in one hour porn.

Britney Spears is about as close to a porn star as a popular female musician has ever gotten. I think you should read some teen magazines and actually see how many times the names Jenna Jameson and Pam Anderson appear. I disagree with you that Paris Hilton's main claim to fame isn't the porn she made and that girls don't think of that when they say they want to be like Paris Hilton.

Your unconvincing attempts to discredit the obvious affects porn has on girls had to intentionally ignore women bringing PORN PICTURES into the plastic surgeon's office. Without a good response to that direct info, you just ignored it, and that's not how people I like to debate with operate.

If your thesis really is that porn doesn't affect girls' self image, I'm going to have to stop here because I'm not going to waste my time piling up direct quotes from women in plastic surgeons offices saying they want to look like the porn stars in the pictures if you're just going to ignore it. Your arguemnt also ignores what the girls in the articles said Asked whether Internet pornography and sexually charged cable content had influenced the messages they got from the larger culture, they exploded.

What motive could you possibly have for downplaying the negative effects porn has clearly had on girls self conceptions? I don't understand why anyone would go out of their way to deny porn proliferations unhealthy impact on girls self esteem.

[mythago]

Playboy is not nearly Bang Bus, or those vomit-inducing pornos, or the 100 men in one hour porn.

And you think that teenage girls are routinely downloading Bang Bus? Probably just as much as they got a look at German bondage porn, or "woman with animals" porn, which I promise you was not invented with the Internet.

intentionally ignore women bringing PORN PICTURES into the plastic surgeon's office

Now, why on earth would I intentionally ignore a vague anecdote that is supposed to prove something about the prevalence of pornography's influence on teenage girls? If I told you that adult women were bringing in photos of mainstream movie starts and saying "I want boobs like hers," would you find that persuasive?

What motive could you possibly have for downplaying the negative effects porn has clearly had on girls self conceptions?

You start with your thesis and ask me to disprove it? Sorry, don't play that game, ma'am.

What motive could you possibly have for defending the non-porn, mass-media, all-pervasive influence of teen girls' and women's magazines on teenage girls' lives? How often do you think a teenage girl looks at Bang Bus compared to how often she stares at a copy of Cosmopolitan, with its indistinguishable-from-Maxim cover girls and its blaring headlines about how to get your man, how to lose weight, how to change what's wrong with you, how to please your man, how to make your boobs look bigger, and on and on? How many times do you think a teenage girl sees articles on losing weight and being thin in Penthouse?

I can tell you that my daughters have never seen a copy of Bang Bus. I can also tell you that every time I have gone to the grocery store, they have been at eye-level with endless women's magazines showing underweight women busting out of their dresses surrounded by copy telling them how to fix what's wrong with them to please men. Teen magazines (and websites) are just a junior version.

So you'll excuse me if I don't hide behind my children to talk about how yucky porn is, because I'm concerned with what is really harming them and telling them they're ugly, fat and exist only to please a man. It isn't Bang Bus telling them that.

[stanton]

Well said, Mythago. You are formidable when you're on a roll! I wince when I see that you have responded to some strong statement I have made. :-)

My youngest daughter is interested in plastic surgery to reduce her butt, even though she has to fight off the many men at college who are falling over each other to get her attention. Where did she get the idea that her body needs improving? From many places, no doubt, but the role of porn in this was probably non-existent. Some of her most formative years were spent in India, where there was no porn available, that I know of.

[mythago]

Isn't she in law school? Tell her to spend a summer abroad at a law school in Nairobi. A friend of mine did this. She said it was wonderful not having to shave her legs or armpits and being constantly told that she really ought to fatten up so her butt would be bigger. ;)

And while this is probably the only kind thing I will ever say about Paris Hilton, it's not only offensive but victim-blaming to call her a "porn star." She did not cheerfully sit down and take money to have sex on film. She made what she thought was a private video of herself having sex with her boyfriend and it got to the Internet.

[stanton]

She's not in law school, she's a senior who aspires to law school. Interestingly enough, she spent the first semester of her junior year in Kenya, and returned with cornrows, totally unshaven for the past several months. The Kenyan people loved her, and she loved them. (Now she wants to do her senior project in Tanzania, where she can also sharpen up her Swahili.) Within a month of her return, everything was back to "normal" for her.

[Karla]

Stanton,
The reason your daughter thinks her body needs improving is because she gets more attention because of it. She doesn't want to be the center of attraction because of a specific body part.___It's funny, nobody is happy with what they have. If they don't have it they try to get it, if they have it they want to hide it!

[Urania]

Can you read? I said there's no reason both porn media and non-porn media aren't BOTH influencing young girls. I'll say it again, since you're having difficulties understanding the simple sentence I wrote above. BOTH are influencing young girls in negative ways.

If I told you that adult women were bringing in photos of mainstream movie starts and saying "I want boobs like hers," would you find that persuasive?

No, I'd say, "Yeah, yeah movies star picture...but lookee over there at that Cosmo model...she's the real source of your problem, it has nothing to do with the ACTUAL PICTURES brought to the plastic surgeons."

One more time, that's BOTH porn media and non-porn media negatively impacting on young girls. I'll continue criticizing both.

You're funny thinking your daughters have never seen degrading porn like that depicted in Bang Bus. Parents say the cutest things.

[Urania]

Vague anecdote this, myopic mom.

More Women Seek Vaginal Plastic Surgery
Run Date: 11/14/04

By Sandy Kobrin
WeNews correspondent

Surgery to reshape the labia and other areas of the vagina is picking up fast, say plastic surgeons. While some women undergo the operations to improve comfort, many want to conform to ideals set by the porn industry.

LOS ANGELES (WOMENSENEWS)--She was 20 years old and had never contemplated plastic surgery. But one day at the gym, the pretty, smooth-faced receptionist in a Los Angeles doctor's office looked at her vagina and noticed that her inner vaginal labia stuck out past her outer labia. She was horrified.

"I looked in like, those magazines, and saw that inner labia shouldn't stick out like mine did," said Crystal, who requested her last name be withheld. "So I had a labiaplasty and now I love the way I look; nice and neat and new. My vagina looks perfect."

In a labiaplasty, the surgical reshaping of female external genital structures, larger or uneven inner vaginal lips are cut and shortened.

Dr. V. Leroy Young, chair of the emerging trends task force of the Arlington Heights, IL., American Society of Plastic Surgeons, believes labiaplasty and vaginal cosmetic surgery are the fastest growing emerging growth trend in cosmetic plastic surgery.

While the organization has no exact numbers yet nationwide, Young noted that more and more doctors were querying the organization, inquiring about learning the procedure. In addition, the physicians that perform vaginal cosmetic surgery have reported enormous increases in patients, particularly over the past decade.

Dr. Pamela Loftus, a plastic surgeon in Boca Raton, Fla., has been performing labiaplasties and vaginal cosmetic surgeries for over 20 years.

Since she put up a Web site two and a half years ago, her business has increased and she's been bombarded with queries. Loftus said she does around six labiaplasties a week. "For the past two years we have been avalanched with phone calls from women who have been made aware of the surgery and want it," Dr. Loftus said.

Physicians advertising vaginal cosmetic procedures surgeries are peppered throughout magazines across the country as this type of cosmetic surgery grows in popularity. As society pressures women to look younger and more perfect, many physicians believe the popularity of these types of surgeries will continue to grow.

Cosmetic surgery in general is on the rise. About 870,000 cosmetic procedures were performed in 2003, a 6.7 percent increase over 2002, according to American Academy of Cosmetic Surgery statistics. These surgeries include breast augmentation, gluteal implants, liposuctions, face lifts, and others, including labiaplasties.

"The numbers for labiaplasty are increasing every year and I think the procedure has finally been accepted in the mainstream," Young said. "This was once a procedure that fell under the radar and now you have women coming in and asking for it."

Former Domain of Sex Workers

Labiaplasty was once the domain of sex workers, nude entertainers, nude models, swimsuit models and the occasional woman who needed her labia reduced for medical reasons such as infection or pain. Not anymore. Doctors have reported that women from every walk of life and from ages 15 to 75 are having labia and cosmetic vaginal surgery.

Many doctors who perform the surgeries say while there are some women who opt for the surgery because they are unhappy or their labia has caused them physical discomfort, the bulk of the women getting this surgery are ultimately being pressured by men who want them to conform to a idea of beauty most often seen in the porn industry. Doctors say these women request the procedure because they are afraid of having "old looking" vaginas. Doctors Loftus and Young say feedback from male partners is the number one reason women request the surgery.

"The most common reason we hear is that they have had a negative comment made by a male sexual partner. Women are made to feel that they are not perfect the way they are and often it's the partner that sets this off," Loftus said.

"My feeling is that women who aren't sex workers are getting this kind of thing because there's pressure from someone who's telling them they're not perfect," Young said. 'There's often pressure from a man who tells them they need it," adding "I assume that their standards for labial beauty were set by a combination of the porn industry, sex-oriented magazines and the Internet."

Sign of Aging

Los Angeles gynecologist Dr. David Matlock, who says he performs more vaginal cosmetic surgery than anyone else in the country, claims women are having labiaplasties and other forms of vaginal cosmetic surgery because "longer, lose hanging inner lips is a sign of aging and women don't want to look old there, either."

"Even young women will look at loose hanging labia as a sign of aging and want to have it done," he said.

Loftus, the Florida surgeon, agreed. "Youth-enhancing surgery is very common now. Why should it stop with the face? Girls 20 to 30 years old now want every part of their body to look as young as they are."

"Women want to be tight," said Matlock. "They don't want sagging or loose labia. I can't tell you how many pages and pages of pornographic material woman have brought into me saying 'I want to look like this.'"

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2067/context/archive

If all you're gonna say in response is "But, but, but what about Cosmopolitan Magazine?", don't bother.

[Redneck Feminist (drumgurl)]

I used to have sympathy for women like that, but my patience has run out. The only thing they need implanted is a backbone.

[Redneck Feminist (drumgurl)]

I mean, I'm all for them having the right to clip their lips and all. But I have a hard time seeing them as victims.

And why the heck is everything italicized?

[Cosmetic surgeon Los Angeles]

Wow, this is nice. I love how it was explained and brought the details. I guess more of them has engaged on plastic surgery. They need to look good so they need it.