Feminism and "making the first move"

For whatever reason, my computer is very slow in loading the comments for all bloggers who use blogspot.  This is annoying, as blogspot hosts many of my favorites, including Amanda at Mousewords.  Yesterday, she put up this interesting post on men, women, feminism, and "initiating contact" in dating relationships:

...the one expectation that weighs heavily on men in the ever-fascinating courting process (is) of actually initiating contact. This is actually a somewhat new expectation, relatively speaking. In the past, introducing yourself to someone was pretty much rude across the board. In our modern life, it's pretty much expected that you have to do this sometimes, lest no one gets laid ever, and the burden has fallen to men.

She quotes Lynn's comment at my blog:

I have to confess, I didn't do a lot of initiating in my single days, even though I do and did believe, as a feminist, that that role should be shared. The reason is, when I know that all the guys expect to be initiating, it's hard for me not to assume that the reason a guy hasn't approached me yet is that he just isn't interested in me anyway, and so why bother?

I've posted before about my own comfort level with mixing traditional chivalry with egalitarian gender politics.  (Holding mutually contradictory ideas comes easily to me, much to the annoyance of those who are fond of a foolish consistency.)  For the record, when I was single, I was not particularly shy about approaching women.  Making the "first move" made sense to me, but that may have more to do with my personality than my gender.  I am perfectly aware that many of my brothers are intensely frustrated by the "rules" that place all of the burden for initiating contact on their shoulders.  For a shy man, the expectation that he must "make the first move"  must seem genuinely unfair and, at times, overwhelming.

Amanda, with characteristic candor, writes:

I'm in a steady relationship now that has the sort of inertia anyone with a good grip on reality delights in, but I know that if I were single, I'd probably fall back into my old habits. Again, it just makes sense. If you like a guy and he's ignoring you, odds are he doesn't like you so why waste your time? I see how it plays out and it frustrates me, but I don't see a good way out of it. You can't teach guys to be more reticent--that's not fair to them. But teaching girls to be forward has only limited use, and efforts in that direction will be dashed on the first guy that strings them along and they take solace in books with obnoxiously long titles about how guys are just not going to be into a sort like you, and everything goes to shit.

Where Amanda and I differ is that I'm not sure we need to find a "way out of it."  For me, feminist principles in a marriage or other romantic relationship revolve around issues of mutual respect and mutual burden-sharing.   In an egalitarian relationship, each person's goals and dreams and efforts matter equally -- and each partner makes equal (if not identical) sacrifices for the success of these goals.  But that has little to do with the way in which a couple meets.

In a world where women are far more likely to be raped and harassed than men are, teaching women to be more forward is to expose them to considerable risk.  While forward men risk rejection (which hurts),  forward women risk far more. Most women have abundant experience with having their friendly, non-sexual overtures misinterpreted.  For some men, even a simple smile from a woman can mean sexual interest.  We have to do much more to make public space safe for women before we can expect greater willingness to make the first move!

But I think it's also true that both men and women can derive real satisfaction from traditional roles.  Perhaps it's because these roles are familiar, but perhaps it's also because they speak to our deep and real desires.   Though making the first move is scary, sometimes it feels good to take a genuine risk.  Overcoming fear is difficult (perhaps all the more so for my more introverted brothers), but it is empowering and exciting to do so.  Making the first move does, I think, make some guys feel more like men.

And, at the risk of getting flamed, I think most women very much want to be wanted.  Of course, we all want to be desirable -- but whether rooted in biology or culture, women's longing to be longed for is powerful stuff indeed.  Though feminist theory emphasizes the importance of women's agency, of making women into the subjects of desire, I think it's important not to forget that every once in a while, being an object of someone else's longing can feel pretty damn good.  Countless women I know feel a certain "feminist guilt" at taking genuine pleasure in being desired and in letting a man pursue them rather than the other way around.  But that guilt is, I think, both misplaced and unnecessary.   Amanda writes of

...this odd pattern where men and women become more and more equal all the time in negotiating their relationships, discussing their sexual needs, the whole bit. And yet getting the ball rolling is still pretty much left up to men.

It's only odd if you assume that how a relationship begins must set the tone for everything that follows. To me, given the different levels of risk for men and women, and given our own innate (so I argue) delight in certain traditional gender roles, it actually makes all the sense in the world.

UPDATE:  I'm going to leave what I wrote above unchanged, but as I re-read it, I do recognize that despite all my years of men's work, I have an unfortunate tendency to be a bit flip in dismissing the real anguish that my less assertive brothers may experience around dating issues.  I ought to be more sympathetic and less glib when I write things like "men risk rejection, nothing more."  Rejection is enough. It hurts and it stinks, and to make light of it for anyone isn't fair.

Sometimes, according to my critics in the comments, it seems I'm insufficiently "masculine" to really empathize with other men.  On the other hand, I wonder if I'm too comfortable with traditional male roles to really connect with the pain of those guys who aren't.  I'm working on it, and I have some things to pray about and reflect upon today.

Comments

[Tony Vila]

I think the short term practical benefits and assumptions (it's easy to assume that if the guy is interested he'll act, women get to feel desired, slight but non-trivial risk of inviting dangerous male responses) do not outweigh the long term philosophical benefits. To me it seems that "starting the relationship" is the most powerful and important part of any relationship, and controlling whether that happens is huge. Not only does it reinforce women being the object of desire, it also encourages submission in women in general (especially among those whose majority of their experience with the opposite sex is in trying to start the dating process at all), and it's an inequality that can have any number of unintentional consequences.

This is especially messed up once you factor in some of society does not act that way. There are some guys that are just outright too shy to ever act, there are some cultures (especially the younger you go) where it's perfectly expected for either gender to make the first move, etc. Once you have some slight uncertainty about whether the male follows "men always initiate", the impetus for women to try initiating sometime, goes way up.

[Hugo]

Tony, I agree with much of what you say -- but dismissing the risk of dangerous male responses as "slight" compared to long-term philosophical consequences troubles me.

OTOH, you're right on when you suggest that among the very young (high schoolers), there does seem to be anecdotal evidence that girls are becoming more assertive -- and this may turn out to be a very good thing indeed.

[Tony Vila]

Assault: I think women being forward raises the probability of harassment either a very small or even negative amount. Men who are violators certainly do not lack boldness (just the opposite, they have far too much), and are possibly all already initiating contact (perhaps even being disproportionately represented among "men who initiate", making the situation riskier). What's more, making this system more egalitarian empowers women in to not having to respond to the approaches of each man so much (since they can approach on their own), and perhaps lessens their risk. At the very least this factor pales when you're controlling for other things (such as the setting, or good judgement of people, etc), and risks giving into the "well the women encouraged it" defense of assault. Most of all though, I think whether or not to initiate isn't as big a decision or risk as "being on the dating scene at all", and like driving a car, is something with a low probability of a catastrophic possibility that people accept.

Counter-cultures: I particularly think that among various counter-cultures (geek, goths, etc) that accept normally outcast people (such as shy boys or outspoken girls), the mode of anyone can make the first move is much more accepted. This is just anecdotal and generalizations though, but it's the perspective I come from and why I reflexively think egalitarianism in this realm is very possible.

[mythago]

Why wouldn't men also want to feel longed-after?

[djw]

As one of those introverted ones, let me challenge you a bit more.

(I recognize I run the risk of sounding like one of those exasperated (and exasperating) "Oh, I just don't know what to do in the baffling post-feminist social landscape!" whiners, which is often a social form of the learned incompetence you've discussed before. Maybe that describes me in this scenario. Anyway....)

"Men risk rejection, nothing more." This depends a great deal on the context of initiation. If it's a stranger, someone you've just met, etc, this is more or less true. But many of us, men and women, just don't talk to people we don't know. We would only attempt to initiate with people with whom we've had an introduction or two--through mutual membership in an association of some sort or though friends and friends of friends. We'd approach them because in our initial conversations, we've found them interesting and potentially interested. In other words, at the early stages of a budding potential friendship.

Rejection isn't my primary concern in this case. My primary concern is in my initiation effort, if she's not interested, she'll get the idea that I was just being nice and friendly and so on because I had this ulterior motive for getting to know her, when it's really not true. In reality, a simple, straightforward rejection is just fine--no confusion, I know exactly where I stand, we can go back to become friends, or not, as the case may be. But in my experience, sometimes the unwanted initiation can throw the whole thing off course and make things uncomfortable. I'm sure I'm probably generalizing far too freely from a limited set of circumstances, but that's what we all tend to do in this realm, isn't it?

As to the risk for women, I think you're exactly right that it's a serious concern, but much more so the more of an unknown quantity the initiatee is. In the circumstances I describe, meeting people through somewhat stable and trusted social networks, I would think that risk would be minimized.

[Jeff]

A few comments, hopefully not piling on:

Overcoming fear is difficult (perhaps all the more so for my more introverted brothers), but it is empowering and exciting to do so.

This is emphatically *not* the case for me. What is empowering is taking what I perceive to be a risk, and having that validated. In the case of flirting, if I walk away feeling desired, that's empowering. If I walk away feeling rejected, it's not - I don't feel accomplishment at overcoming my fear, I just feel like the fear was justified and I shouldn't have put myself through the discomfort.

Making the first move does, I think, make some guys feel more like men.

I find this an uncompelling justification, and somewhat problematic. Lots of things make some guys feel more like men, and often they do it in such a way that those who are unable or unwilling to take part are made to feel less masculine.

And, at the risk of getting flamed, I think most women very much want to be wanted.

Of course they do. Everyone, man or woman, does. Again, I don't see that as a justification for not trying to correct problems with the status quo. It should also be pointed out that this "want to be wanted" has a darker side - the women who aren't receiving this attention from men (the ones who also tend to be ignored in discussions like these) are made to feel unwanted and worthless.

[Hugo]

DJW, I hear you -- and I think you speak to the best way to resolve the problem, which is helping folks of all ages to become members of cohesive, accepting, stable communities which would provide safe opportunities to meet others. I'm all for that.

I'm not against women asking men out! I'm just not prepared to see the traditional reticence of women to do so (even many feminist women) as a problem that needs to be fixed...

And mythago, of course men want to be desired. But I'm not clear how these roles rob men of that experience.

[Amanda]

Sorry it's taking so long to load. I'm having a horrible time trying to put any new posts up, because Blogger is dragging so bad today. I'm fixing to throw a rock through my computer screen.

Anyway, nice reply. Men so rarely get to experience being openly wanted that it can often have a startling effect on them when a woman is forward. Sometimes it's downright cute to see it. But if women crave it more, it's because it's an identity issue for us. An unwanted woman in our society is still considered less than a full woman, and that weighs rather heavily on us.

[Ron O.]

Why wouldn't men also want to feel longed-after?

Thank you! Thank you! Mythago.

And thank you too Hugo for your late qualifications. One of the things that used to really get me angry was outgoing people telling me that initiating contact was easy. For them it is. I've spent years with nary a date because of my shyness & insecurities. Don't want to whine, things are going pretty good for me now, but I did not derive any satisfaction from this traditional gender role.

There were many times I wished the woman would have gotten things going in a forthright way. I'm ususally fine once I get started. I often wondered or assumed she wasn't attracted to me since she did not.

[Keri]

No flaming here, but I always find "traditional roles can be fulfilling" arguments a bit disturbing, particularly when they flirt with biological essentialism (the "they speak to our deep and real desires" bit). I don't think mythago's question was fully addressed-- why would men find it less appealing than women to be pursued? For that matter, why wouldn't women experience the same sense of accomplishment and empowerment in overcoming their nerves and initiating successful interactions with men? The idea that men and women approach relationships so differently and want such different things out of them that different roles are necessary is really troubling to me.

In any case, I won't deny that some people may find traditional roles appealing; however, I don't think that fact invalidates the need to examine those roles and the sexism that may contribute to them. At the risk of doing the kind of arrogant agency-denying that I have serious problems with in many feminist arguments, the fact that people enjoy something doesn't necessarily mean that it's healthy for them or that they're doing it for the right reasons. There's a difference between, for example, "I'm a woman and I don't make the first move in relationships because I'm shy and it makes me uncomfortable" and "I'm a woman and I don't make the first move in relationships because women shouldn't do that." The former I don't have a problem with, the latter I definitely do, no matter how "happy" or "fulfilled" someone who lives by that philosophy may be.

As far as the "it makes guys feel more like men" justification goes, I find it surprising that you're using an argument like that, seeing as many of the aspects of traditional masculinity that you often criticize serve the same purpose in some men's lives. (Misogynistic treatment of women probably makes a fair amount of men feel more validated in their masculinity, but I doubt you'd use that as an argument in favor of it.) Shouldn't we be questioning why "feeling like a man" is so important, and why some actions contribute to this feeling and others do not, instead of simply accepting it at face value?

I also don't think it's appropriate to dismiss the possibility that the way a relationship begins can set the tone for its later development and progress-- they can't be separated as easily as you might think. It's not random that relationship norms have developed so that men are the ones encouraged and often expected to make the first move-- it comes from the idea that men should be "leaders" and women should be "followers," and that attitude certainly can carry over once the relationship is established. That's not to say that every individual relationship initiated by the man is going to turn out this way, but the overall trend is troubling.

[Charla Mane]

I can't say I've ever approached a man, I guess I'm just kind of shy about it. I try, and I think I've made lots of progress, but it's difficult. I'm just not used to it, I feel very uncomfortable with it.__The most important thing I can do as a woman is to let them know I'm receptive and try to overcome my shyness.

[corianne]

"We have to do much more to make public space safe for women before we can expect greater willingness to make the first move!"

I think that statement is so very true - and a huge reason why so many women are uneasy about making any sort of move. Often, it is miscontrued as disinterest if we appear standoffish or distracted, but in reality, we were merely overanalyzing the situation and trying to read into the intentions and motivations of the person we are with.

But maybe that's just me... I'm getting better, but I always assume it's better safe than sorry... and I would much rather have someone who is patient with my reservations than lead them to believe I am someone that I am not.

I miss your comments Hugo! I know you've been busy, but don't forget about me... stop by and say hi when you have a chance :)

Take care! I hope you're well.

[Hugo]

Well, what's interesting about Amanda, and Lynn, and so many other strong women is that despite the fact that they are uncomfortable with initating, things have turned out well for them - they are in egalitarian relationships that thrive on feminist principles. That's an anecdotal argument, but it seems to be a not-uncommon story.

Traditional sex roles are unhealthy when they don't permit us to be fully human. But when, despite the fact that we have alternatives, we "like" living out our romantic lives in traditional ways, I don't think that's a major problem.

I am often critical of traditional masculinity, but there is much about it that I find admirable -- and perhaps the most admirable quality of all is the emphasis on taking initiative and responsibility. Women, of course, can do the same if they so choose -- but a feminism that makes them feel guilty for not doing so is not a feminism that I think is useful.

Women have enough guilt, I think, without being told that they are letting down the sisterhood by not being more aggressive in pursuing sexual and romantic relationships.

[mythago]

But when, despite the fact that we have alternatives, we "like" living out our romantic lives in traditional ways, I don't think that's a major problem.

I do think it is a major problem when we do not consider why we "like" those traditional roles, or when we ascribe our "like" to some deep and essential nature, or when we do not question whether we have fully examined the alternatives.

And yes, I feel that women are letting down the sisterhood when they don't consider how their own behavior conflicts with their feminist ideals.

[Hugo]

Are you suggesting, Mythago, that the Amandas have not examined the alternatives? I think they have, and despite some ambivalence, have made choices that work for them without harming other women in a meaningful way.

I'm not an essentialist. But I'm not someone who is convinced that all gender roles are mere social constructs, either! Nature and nurture work together to create what it is that we are comfortable with. And I don't think that a knowing, "eyes wide open" enjoyment of role-playing ought to result in a trip to the Feminist Woodshed.

[mythago]

If only I had control over the Feminist Woodshed. I'd have to have switched arms by now. ;)

Knowing there are alternatives, and seriously considering them in light of one's own principles, is different than saying "Hey, there are alternatives, but happily the ones I chose conveniently overlap my comfort level and the traditional roles in which I've been raised."

[yami]

I'm troubled by the idea that shyness in initiating relationships, and shyness in other areas of life, are so easily separable. We all have different comfort levels with taking the initiative in romantic vs. professional vs. other contexts, but I think we use more or less the same skills to overcome our discomfort in all cases. I definitely see a connection between the idea that women make less because they don't ask for raises, or bargain during interviews, etc., and that we are not forced to learn the anti-shy fu for dating. I'm not sure how the causality works though - maybe some who've learned to take the initiative could weigh in?

I would also be hesitant to tell a romantically shy woman that she's hurting the sisterhood - but I wouldn't be afraid to say that she's hurting herself. But maybe that's just 'cause I'm so smitten with my shy man :D

[Charla]

It's important to take into consideration a woman's personality and background before we make judgements regarding this issue. Some women are really comfortable in initiating with men. Others are just plain uncomfortable and might be afraid of turning the man off if they are too aggressive. __ Timing is everything, and patience is absolutely essential.

[Ron O.]

I don't think it is surprising that a smart, outgoing and funny person found a good mate. I'd be surprised if Amanda and others were dating jerks. It's not like good guys are that rare, though probably sometimes hard to find.

Being inhibited can be a vicious cycle of regret, depression, and insecurity that to get out of takes time and effort and sometimes therapy too. Being socially awkward in this way, you get very little positive re-enforcement and a whole lot of feeling like an unattractive dork. Your friends may tell you differently, but they're biased. These social rules are not very healthy for men like me.

-- and perhaps the most admirable quality of all is the emphasis on taking initiative and responsibility.

Yes, those two can be admirable qualities. (They also don't necessarily go together.) It can be good for women to have them too. I think making them masculine characteristics contributes to the guilt of men who are not initiators and that is not useful either. Am I less of a man because I'm reluctant to make the first move? Have your attempts to initiate ever contributed to a woman feeling less secure in public?

[Hugo]

I'm not sure, Ron, if those last two questions are rhetorical or directed towards me. Assuming the latter, my answer to the first is "heavens, no." As for the second question, I don't want to give the impression that in my single years I was some sort of hyper-aggressive Don Juan. I'd like to think I was "subtly assertive" in my single days. Or maybe my memory flatters me.

[Ron O.]

Rhetorical. I'm not concerned about any past mistakes. I meant to point out that making initiative a specifically masculine trait contributes to making public spheres less comfortable for women.

[cmc]

I am a woman and I absolutely loved asking men out when I was single, even though it was nerve wracking. I loved it and I highly recommend it to other women. (Apologies if I sound like a broken record since I have posted comments on this before here and elsewhere.)

If anything taking the initiative helped make me feel more desired and desirable. I learned that there were some men who found me attractive who just hadn't worked up the nerve to approach me first or assumed that they didn't have a chance. As for the ones who weren't interested in me, I learned quickly that they weren't interested and moved on. I never wasted time agonizing over whether a man was going to call me or trying to make him notice me. And what a great feeling it was to have control over my dating life, to make someone else feel flattered and wanted, and to experience the exhileration of having someone great say, "Yeah, I'd love to go to the concert on Friday."

Some men were perhaps frightened off by my "forwardness" and avoided me, but I never had any assume that my taking the initiative meant I would definitely sleep with them.

[bmmg39]

"...the one expectation that weighs heavily on men in the ever-fascinating courting process (is) of actually initiating contact. This is actually a somewhat new expectation, relatively speaking. In the past, introducing yourself to someone was pretty much rude across the board. In our modern life, it's pretty much expected that you have to do this sometimes, lest no one gets laid ever, and the burden has fallen to men."

[sigh] When exactly did dating become about sex?

"And, at the risk of getting flamed, I think most women very much want to be wanted. Of course, we all want to be desirable -- but whether rooted in biology or culture, women's longing to be longed for is powerful stuff indeed."

So is my similar longing, and I ain't a woman. I really wish I knew why people think that "feeling wanted" and "being made to feel special" are exclusively female objectives.

[bmmg39]

<< There's a difference between, for example, "I'm a woman and I don't make the first move in relationships because I'm shy and it makes me uncomfortable" and "I'm a woman and I don't make the first move in relationships because women shouldn't do that." >>

I completely agree. Some folks are shy; some are not. But I can only imagine the number of people who missed out on true happiness because the guy was shy and the gal was brought up to believe that she's never to ask anyone out, or that "guys are never shy".

[bmmg39]

"I am a woman and I absolutely loved asking men out when I was single, even though it was nerve wracking...And what a great feeling it was ... to make someone else feel flattered and wanted..."

Bless your soul.

"Some men were perhaps frightened off by my "forwardness" and avoided me, but I never had any assume that my taking the initiative meant I would definitely sleep with them. "

That's great. I get so depressed when I turn on the tv and some vapid dating show like BLIND DATE is on. They meet, have drinks, and then they're swapping spit in a hot tub somewhere. THEN they think about whether they like each other or not. So, here I am, imagining having a steady girlfriend to share diffident cheek-kisses with, and these people are snogging after knowing each other an hour.

One young woman essentially ridiculed the guy she got set up with because he doesn't have sex unless he's in a committed relationship. Gosh, wonder what she'd think of me...