Taking on "His Side with Glenn Sacks"

Well, folks, I'm going to be on Glenn Sacks' radio show this Sunday.  We'll be discussing the men's movement, and I expect things will get a bit fiery. For those who don't know him, Glenn is a fellow Angeleno, newspaper columnist and talk-show host.  Glenn sent me this bit of info:

You can call the show and join the discussion in progress at 1-800-439-4805 (lines open this Sunday from 5-6PM PST).

For those who are outside of our radio stations' coverage ranges, you can listen to the show live this Sunday (1/23/05) via our station's excellent Internet stream at Listen Live.

His Side with Glenn Sacks can be heard on WSNR AM 620 in New York City and North-Eastern New Jersey, and on WWZN AM 1510 in Boston on Sundays at 10 PM EST. The show can also be heard in Southern California on KTIE AM 590 at 5 PM PST

Glenn is a more moderate figure than some in the Men's Rights Movement.  (To start with, he's civil, which immediately differentiates him from his hostile and bitter brethren who can be found at places like Manpower).  That doesn't mean he doesn't take profoundly offensive positions!  (A list of his columns may be found here).  For example, Glenn supports Choice 4 Men, a movement which seeks to give men the right to evade responsibility for the children they help to conceive:

...when a woman  forces a man to be responsible for a child only she wants, and when the state child-support apparatus takes a third or more of  his income and jails him if he comes up short, isn't the government exercising control over his life? The "Choice for Men" movement seeks to give fathers the right to relinquish their parental rights and responsibilities within a  month of learning of a pregnancy, just as mothers do when they choose to give their children up for adoption.

We might want to touch on that on Sunday. 

What I'm really hoping to discuss with Glenn, however, is the notion of "men as victims."  Men's rights advocates like to emphasize male powerlessness.  Whether it be in marriage or custody battles, on campus or in the workplace, men's rights advocates claim that women have the "real" power.  The legal system discriminates against men, and the broader culture humiliates and demeans them. 

I'm not denying that many men today feel unhappy and overwhelmed.  But they are wrong to blame women and the feminist movement for that discomfort.  American men live in a patriarchal system that bestows tremendous, but often invisible, privilege upon them.  The fact that men aren't aware of that privilege doesn't mean it isn't there!   Men, after all, still control virtually every facet of power in our society.  Our political, religious, economic and military leaders are overwhelmingly men. 

On Sunday, I'm going to make the case that men's unhappiness is rooted not in women's power, but in their own failures to live up to the impossibly high expectations of our culture.  One of my favorite pro-feminist writers, Allan Johnson, puts it this way in his superb The Gender Knot:

As with other aspects of patriarchal societies, the price men pay for gender privilege has mnore to do with their relationships with other men and the social institutions that men control than it does with women.  It's easier and safer to project power and responsibility onto women, but, like so many paths of least resistance, it takes us away from the truth.

I'll have more to blog on this soon.  In the meantime, tune in on Sunday and consider calling in.

Comments

[Anne]

Why do so many men these days declare feeling "overwhelmed"? As I see it, if anything, men have less responsibilities today than in the past. It is much easier for men today to "opt out" of the roles that were once considered expected of them. How can you say that our culture places "impossibly high expectations" on men? That may have been true say fifty years ago... but not anymore.....

[Hugo Schwyzer]

There's a huge difference, Anne, between "expectations" and "responsibilities." Expectations for hard-muscled bodies and fat wallets have only increased in recent years! The masculine ideal has become more and more elusive to young men. And if you talk to young men, you will find that a remarkable number of them do feel uncertain and overwhelmed, not to mention terribly pressured. Our consumerist society has produced more choices, but with those choices, more burdens.

Many young men do choose to opt out -- but it is only privileged, affluent young men who can opt out with impunity.

[thisgirl]

Good luck Hugo; will I be able to get hold of a trnascript or something after the event?

[Ab_Normal]

I'm a working mom, and my husband is a stay at home dad. Let's see if I can articulate something about expectations.

We both seem to feel the *same* guilt that our family doesn't measure up economically because of our choice to have an at-home parent. Perhaps by taking on the (traditionally) male role of sole bread-winner I've taken on the (traditional) expectations... the same expectations my husband cannot discard, though he has discarded that role. For some reason, we *both* think, "It's *my* fault we don't have (unnecessary material item)." ('Cause the worth of your family is directly tied to the worth of your house, your car, your TVs, your computers, don'tcha know? We're really fighting that.)

[Hugo Schwyzer]

Thisgirl, I don't know about a transcript, but it will be audio-archived on his site to listen to anytime. If you can play MP3s, you can listen to it. Or, you could stay up from 1-2 Monday morning to listen live on the 'net, but I would not recommend it.

[thisgirl]

Archives it is then!

[Amanda]

It seems to me that most men's rights activists think any power women have, however small, is too much. And that's why they fuss.

[Anne]

Hugo, I would love to know your definition of the "masculine ideal". If men feel overwhelmed by the expectation for "hard-muscled bodies and fat wallets"... how do they expect women to feel about the expectation for thin-sculpted bodies and successful careers? Are we all then expected to feel "overwhelmed" by the pressures of society?

Why should men feel any more uncertain in today's world than before? What added pressures are put upon them? I would think that the ability of women to share in the financial resposibilities... and the increased choices in child care... and the acceptance of alternative lifestyles would make men's lives less pressured.

[Hugo Schwyzer]

Anne, remember that it isn't a competition! The fact that women feel overwhelmed does not mean that men ought to have it easier. Pain is not a zero-sum game.

We live in a much more economically uncertain world. We live in a world where gender roles are far more blurred than before, which leaves many men confused and bewildered.

And from a feminist standpoint, it does not diminish the reality of women's oppression to point out that men are also suffering. But it is worth noting that a great many of these men are, in fact, unconscious architects of their own adversity. But the perceived pain is very, very real.

[Anne]

You are totally correct that many of these men are "unconcious architects of their own adversity".

One of your former PCC colleagues kept complaining to his class that he had been the "victim" of broken dreams... and at 40+ he was still lamenting the fact that he was single, renting a small apartment, and living on a limited income. He compared himself numerous times to his older brother who had lived up to the American "ideal". He had married after college, had two children, owned million-dollar property, and had a stable and successful career.

While I felt pity for this man initially, I then came to know that he was indeed the "architect" of his failure. His answer to everything was that he was simply "overwhelmed", and that the blame for his inadequacies should be placed on society... not on himself. Although his perceived pain was in no doubt real, he (as well as many other men - and women) needed to realize that only he can fix the problem of his discomfort.

You are also correct that this is not a competition! And I think both men and women could do themselves a big favor by ceasing to fall victim to the pressures put on them by the media (and society at large) to be in competition for the best body, the biggest house, the most expensive car, etc... People need to learn to be happy with who they are and what they have.

[CaptDMO]

HUGO,
"Many young men do choose to opt out -- but it is only privileged, affluent young men who can opt out with impunity."

I'm not sure I understand the point of this one. Please expand.

Good luck on the Sacks show.

[zuzu]

We live in a much more economically uncertain world.

Than when? I know you're old enough to recall the recessions in the 70s, 80s and 90s, which of course don't compare at all to the Great Depression in this country and the postwar depression in Europe pre-Marshall Plan. Where were all the men back then feeling overwhelmed enough to start men's movements?

I submit that it's not the economic uncertainty but the changing roles of men and women that cause a lot of issues. Men can no longer count on clearly-prescribed gender roles, and compared to earlier generations of men, they have fewer privileges based solely on their maleness (which of course, were stolen goods to begin with). Women aren't going to go back to the 1950s, and I don't think most men really want that, either -- what they want is the seeming certainty of what it meant to be a man back then.

[Hugo Schwyzer]

The economic uncertainty is linked to massively increased expectations -- the consumer demand that families have today was simply not as intense as it was two or three generations ago. And yes, working class men were able to feed families on their salary alone. Not always (women certainly did work), and not at today's standards -- but it happened. Minimum wage buys less today than it ever has.

Of course, shifting gender roles also play a massive part in this, perhaps the lion's share -- and that was part of my original point.

The wealthy can opt out by not going to work, pursuing dreams of being an artist or someother counter-cultural activity, funded by family -- poor boys can often only opt out through violence.

[Jeff JP]

and compared to earlier generations of men, they have fewer privileges based solely on their maleness (which of course, were stolen goods to begin with).

Spouting tired feminist tripe again? "Stolen goods"? Of course, little Hugo won't call you a misandrist, even though you are one.

Jeff JP

[zuzu]

I don't hate all men, Jeff, just you.

[Jeff JP]

I don't hate all men, Jeff, just you.

ROFLMAO.

[zuzu]

*mwah!*

[Robert L]

Have you considered using this opportunity to get some more insight into aspects of Men's Movement? Learning is what life is all about after all.

Have you considered that blaming the Men's Movement for a couple of sad and angry individuals is just as bad as them blaming women for injustices against males in today's world? Messed up folks on either side is not an excuse to ignore inequality.

I have read through your blog, and in reading I have found that you are able to see reason when it is placed in front of you in a nonhostile manner.

It is easy to get your hackles raised when you (be you male or female) believe in something strongly and you feel that your beliefs and issues are being ignored. That is where I feel these men are coming from. Appreciate the fact that there are calming presences out there.

I am trying to understand you better.

With Respect,

Robert L

[Hugo Schwyzer]

Thank you, Robert! I am indeed aware that the men's movement is diverse. Indeed, as I've done many times on this blog, I try and distinguish between the men's RIGHTS movement (which I do see as anti-feminist) and the broader men's movement, which includes my own pro-feminist allies in groups like National Orgamization of Men against Sexism and Men Can Stop Rape. Men's movement fellows can also be found in the mytho-poetic movement, and in Christian groups like Promise Keepers.

My problem is only with those elements of the men's movement that see men's contemporary crisis as a product of the feminist movement. Happily, only a small part of the broader men's movement chooses to see men as victims of feminism; many men's organizations consider feminists to be our strong allies.

[Malchus]

Hugo,
I agree with your position on the men's movement. Our society places extraordinary expectations on men to achieve societal norms.__To attain 'hard muscled bodies and fat wallets'.... But, don't you think that most of these expectations are perpetuated by men themselves?.....Why do men feel that they have to work out 7 days a week?? Who are they trying to impress with their hard muscled bodies anyway?...Women could care less about 'hard bodies', men do this for their own egos. .....Society places equal pressure on men and women to attain the ideal physique, and there is something very wrong about placing so much emphasis on physical appearance.__ As far as 'fat wallets' are concerned, men need to get over the psychological hang-ups over money.__They don't need to take care of women anymore, women can take care of themselves. They don't need to keep up with their peers, they just need to fulfill their own personal expectations for self worth.__ Maybe what we need to do is re-educate our society into believing that it's okay to be poor and flabby, no matter what your gender is, as long as you are rich in goodness on the inside.

[zuzu]

Women could care less about 'hard bodies'

Some of us do rather enjoy them! However, there's basic fitness and self-care, and there's becoming obsessed with the pursuit of unattainable ideals.

Of course, there's also a difference between being comfortable with not being perfect and beaching yourself on the couch.