Feminist mothers

I was happy to be back in my hometown this weekend.  One of the things about growing up in a small community of 4700 people is that no matter how long one has been away, one still comes home to familiar (if aging) faces on the street.   And every block is filled with memories.  I hadn't been home to Carmel in over a year, and I had missed it very much.

Both Trish and Amanda have posted about feminists raising boys.  Since my fiancee and I were visiting my mother this weekend, I've got a few reflections of my own on the subject.

I'm happy to say that my brother and I were raised by a feminist mom.   My parents divorced in 1973, when I was six and my brother three.   I won't blog much about my family, but I will say that it was an amicable, even cordial separation.  I have never heard either of my parents speak ill of the other, and for that blessing, I am immensely grateful!   After the divorce, my mother and brother and I moved to Carmel, where I would live until I graduated from high school.

I remember, as a child of six or seven, flipping through my mother's copies of Ms. Magazine.  It (along with the New Republic and the New York Review of Books) was a regular arrival in our household.  I don't remember much about the articles, but i had a general sense of what the magazine was about: women like my mother.  I already knew that my mother went by "Ms." after the divorce, because I had seen that title on most of the mail that came to our house.  Mom had gently explained what the word meant in terms I could  comprehend:  a "Ms." was a woman who was not going to have her title defined by whether or not she was married.  On some level, I accepted that quite happily.  I'm still rather partial to the term "Ms." as a result.

The greatest feminist gift my mother gave her sons was not, however, an appreciation for the National Organization for Women or Ms. Magazine.  It was the firm awareness that as males, we ought never expect women to do for us what we could do for ourselves.  Women were not there to please us and meet our needs.  When I was a small boy, I remember my mother saying to us "I love you both with all my heart.  But though you are very important to me, you are not the only thing that matters to me.  My life matters too."  She said that in a loving way, and because she was so present and involved in every aspect of our growing up, neither my brother nor I ever felt deprived by our mother's insistence that her happiness was also important.

My mother had many women friends who were active in local politics.  In our childhood, Mom was active with the League of Women Voters.  On a few occasions, League meetings were held in our house.   I remember, as a small boy, doing little tasks like plugging in the coffee maker and arranging cookies on platters for League meetings.  But above all, I remember so many wonderful older women who filled our home with talk of politics and laughter, and, in those days, cigarette smoke.  I don't remember most of the issues under discussion, though I do remember hearing quite a bit in the late 1970s about the Equal Rights Amendment.  (Thanks to my mother, I was one of those boys who knew that that was what ERA stood for long before I ever heard about baseball's Earned Run Average!)

I was raised to believe that women were my equals emotionally, intellectually, and even physically.  Women were to be respected, but not placed on pedestals.   Strong women who spoke their minds were to be admired, and it was little wonder that my first crushes in pre-adolescence were all on the most athletic and (dare I say it) "tomboyish" of girls!  I was never afraid of competing with women, or ashamed of being beaten by a woman (something that most of my male friends struggled with).  My mother's example was a tremendous gift.

Of course, my mother's feminist lessons were about much more than one's personal interactions with other women.  She instilled in both my brother and me a commitment to social justice and gender equality that has stayed with us into our professional lives.  I would never have started teaching women's history a decade ago if it hadn't been for my mother.  Mom and I disagree now about quite a few things.  She's most decidedly not a Christian, and my own conversion experience has helped shift some of my beliefs about issues like abortion rights.  We still have vigorous debates from time to time, and a few areas where we have simply "agreed to disagree".  But when it comes to the basic principle that women deserve full and complete equality with men politically, socially, and economically, we are in total agreement.

Even my parents divorce was both an important feminist lesson and a wonderful, if difficult, opportunity for growth.   Divorce is never easy on children, and I won't pretend that it was.  But my parents' decision to separate sent me a lasting message that I could not take women for granted.  Just because you've married and had children doesn't mean you will stay, regardless of external circumstances.  When you're certain that you won't ever be left, no matter how badly you behave, you have far fewer incentives to exercise self-control than when you know darned well that if you blow it, the other party may well say goodbye.   I'd like to think that was a good and important lesson for my brother and me to learn, and that it has helped us enormously in our adult relationships with women to the present day.

Hurrah for the feminist mothers of sons!

Comments

[joe]

"When you're certain that you won't ever be left, no matter how badly you behave, you have far fewer incentives to exercise self-control than when you know darned well that if you blow it, the other party may well say goodbye."

I wonder what it would be like to be in a relationship where I could be certain my spouse would never leave me. Are relationships based on “incentives”, or what seem to be potential threats to keep each in line? As for self-control, that comes from within, and I guess it wouldn’t really be self-control if ones behavior was predicated by “incentives”.

“It was the firm awareness that as males, we ought never expect women to do for us what we could do for ourselves. Women were not there to please us and meet our needs.”

I guess you could have simply said, we ought never to expect another to do for us what we could do for ourselves. Then if you had said that, you might realize that it wasn’t any great feminist gift. Your own rhetoric shows there is no innovation to feminists values, simply a way to look at the world through the eyes of “persecuted” women—and blame men.

[Amanda]

That would make sense if men weren't raised to expect to be waited on by women. Don't even try to imply they aren't. My boyfriend had a fight with his family once when they made fun of him for doing his own laundry when his (then) girlfriend was at the house with him.

And don't play cute with the "incentive" thing. All people are weak and we all have nefarious urges that are kept in check in our weaker moments through the selfish desire to avoid trouble. If a cute guy I'm really attracted to hits on me, the fear of losing my boyfriend rides me over the hump into, "I would never hurt my boyfriend since I love him" territory. But it's in that hump where bad decisions are made. Whatever works, works.

[joe]

Amanda: your boyfriend and I make two--you think there are more of us. Was he also made to wash dishes, vacuum and dust, clean bathrooms, wash floors and walls? It is amazing my mother made me do all these things and yet never mentioned feminism. How did she do that without being a feminist, never even mentioning the word? Oh, if it weren’t for feminism she wouldn't have done that. I call this bullshit. Men and women have done throughout history what you would term male and female "responsibilities" out of necessity. Imagine a man mending their own cloths when women aren’t around, it happens! Though I guess folks don’t mend cloths to the extent they used to, but you understand? The other problem I have with feminism is the continued fault found with men at the expense of hardly ever acknowledging a women’s error. It is as if women have no expectations of men and that they have not been a burden to men. In exploring feminism, do the feminist ever consider the critique of women or are they just concerned about responding to further male “harassment”.

I’ll tell you, the value you place on incentive is shaky. I choose not to do wrong because of the value I place in what is perceived to be wrong, not because I fear trouble. Rules are for folks who have poor judgment. Fear works when one doesn’t understand right from wrong. Fear works for those who need guidance. When one understands or doesn’t understand right from wrong, what happens when fear runs out? Morals/values “fall apart” because folks never had them in the first place—their values were based solely on fear.

[Amanda]

I'm just a realist. It's always the people who make up high-falutin reasons not to cheat that end up doing it, I've noticed. A good, solid practical reason not to cheat or do other screwy things like, "I don't want to be left," can get people through moments of weakness. If you don't think that you're weak, you're setting yourself up for failure.

Good for you that your mom raised you with at least one feminist value (men should do shitwork), even if she didn't call herself a feminist. My mom raised me with some feminist values, but she wouldn't call herself one. My boyfriend was raised explicitly anti-feminist, and since he's a common sense kind of guy, he chose it for himself.

[joe]

Amanda, I guess your realism is seen through your eyes only and from that perspective, you might have a point—look out for number one first. Now that I have a family, my actions cannot be based primarily on my fears. If I no longer fear being alone, your highfalutin reason may leave my family behind. From my perspective, your realist position of fear is a facade—it is self-centered. There are billions of people, the fear of being alone, is rather trite, and not realist. But if you want to idealize the match made in heaven and you fear loosing that perfect mate, realize the contradiction in your realism and the idealized perfect match. There is relevance to values with a necessity to the individual and in this sense, some values are not superior then others. However, I don’t think fear a prudent crutch in any value.

“Good for you that your mom raised you with at least one feminist value (men should do shitwork)”. Are you insinuating men didn’t do “shitwork” till they supposedly started doing domestic chores and that this is a feminist value that men should do shitwork? For sake of argument, you can have your labels of feminist values, but please don’t label my actions as such.

[zuzu]

Imagine a man mending their own cloths when women aren’t around, it happens!

Of course it does, because stuff needs to get done. The bigger test is how those same men behave when there are women around. If they have the skills to mend their own clothes, but only use those skills when there are no women around, that says that they expect women to do for them.

It's learned helplessness. And both men and women are conditioned to it -- many women will leave car or home repair to their men if they have them, but perform the same tasks (i.e., pumping gas, changing oil, mowing the lawn) when on their own.

What feminism does is question why one gender leaves certain tasks that they're perfectly capable of performing to the other gender.

[Hugo Schwyzer]

Zuzu, your last sentence nails it.

Traditionalists talk a great deal about the complementary nature of gender roles. The problem is not with complementarity, it's with the unequal distribution of the workload. Typically "male" tasks like taking out the trash and mowing the lawn, for example, is considerably less work than "female tasks" such as childcare or even meal preparation.

If we are going to have complemtary roles, than they need to be comparable in terms of demands on time and energy.

[djw]

Also, I don't have time to search for it now, but it might interest Joe that research has been done on this, and it shows that women still do the vast majority of housework, even when they work just as much or more outside the home. I'm hoping someone else will find find a pointer to info on this, but if not I'll try to dig it up tonight or tomorrow when I have a chance. The shirking or avoiding of this kind of work by men is widespread, your personal experiences notwithstanding.

[XP]

Hugo,
What a fabulous place to have as a hometown. I've traveled extensively, but of all the places that I have ever visited, Carmel is at the top of my list.__The misty rugged coastline, the majestic trees,...its inspirational, poetry on a canvas.

You are also very lucky to have a mom that empowered you with self reliance, compassion, and the wisdom to understand that men and women are essentially the same...except for the biological differences.

[NancyP]

Yep, that's one reason that women decide that problematic men are dumpable. If they don't help out in the day to day chores, don't pay much attention to the kids, and they make a hash of finances you could readily handle yourself, they really don't add anything that you can't get from a "fuck buddy".

[zuzu]

Also, I don't have time to search for it now, but it might interest Joe that research has been done on this, and it shows that women still do the vast majority of housework, even when they work just as much or more outside the home.

Check out The Second Shift for info about this.

If they don't help out in the day to day chores, don't pay much attention to the kids, and they make a hash of finances you could readily handle yourself, they really don't add anything that you can't get from a "fuck buddy".

And you can send a fuck buddy home if he bugs you.

[Amanda]

Joe, people are multi-faceted creatures. Because I acknowledge that I act out of fear on occasion doesn't make all my choices selfish. I do the right thing most of the time because it's the right thing to do. But it doesn't hurt to remind myself of the consequences of breaking promises once in awhile.

Boy, you'd think a bunch of law and order conservatives would see that! Or are rules only for weak-willed "others"?

[djw]

thanks zuzu

[Trish Wilson]

djw: "I don't have time to search for it now, but it might interest Joe that research has been done on this, and it shows that women still do the vast majority of housework, even when they work just as much or more outside the home."

Someone already linked to The Second Shift, which I was going to also mention. It was written by Arlie Hochschild.

[Trish Wilson]

Here's more on the Second Shift thing when it comes to child care:

"It appears, from a variety of data sources, that most fathers still do very little child care, especially when the children are very young. To be sure, there has been a change in the meaning of fatherhood, as reflected in both the attitude and the behavior of fathers, largely as a result of a general shift in less gender-specific family roles (Thornton and Freedman, 1983; Stein, 1984). But, Pleck (1985) and others, who have done extensive research on this question, have concluded that most of these changes have been relatively modest."

"The Meaning of Fatherhood for Men," Koray Tanfer, Battelle Memorial Institute; Frank Mott, Ohio State University; Prepared for NICHD Workshop "Improving Data on Male Fertility and Family Formation" at the Urban Institute, Washington, D.C., January 16-17, 1997

[Renee]

I was raised to believe that women were my equals emotionally, intellectually, and even physically.

Biologically, men and women are different on all of those levels. A brain scan or test of strength will tell you that. They are equal only in that they are both human.
I can't for the life of me understand the hell bent intent of feminists, let alone men trying to persuade everyone that our only differences are sexual organs. I'm fairly certain a point will come in the not too distant future when NOW petitions congress to order surgery to amputate mens' genitals... or maybe augment womens'.

As for housework, most men "get" that if most the husband and wife work all day, they both need to do the housework. If they don't pick up on that right away, odds are they had a stay at home mom that did the cleaning (as well she should if she's elected to work as a homemaker). A nice talk with a spouse will do wonders to balance the workload if this is the case.

This is much ado about nothing.

[Amanda]

Good to know all the men you know are so wonderful. Many of the married men I know, and most of the ones back home in West Texas, have absolutely no problem watching their wife leave at 7:30 when they do, get home at 5:30 when they do and then the men cheerfully plop down in front of TV while the women cook their dinner, bring it to them, clean up afterwards and hopefully get some housework done before bed.

My aunt, for instance, always jokes about how she hasn't seen a TV show in years.

[rmeg]

Hurray for your feminist mother. Maybe she didn't call herself a feminist back then, but she gave you something of value and helped shape your values, so you became the socially-aware person you are today.

[Karen]

I am a married mother of three boys. I am a recovering Catholic, 'Survivor', no longer Republican with a new perspective on what I SHOULD being doing with my life. I took a Western Civ. class at our local Jr. College and now I understand why I have been a severely depressed 'stay at home' 'Mom'for five years. I nurtured and nursed my husband and children, never to be taken care of and purposely neglected on Mother's Day where as my husband stated "how dare you EXPECT gifts. It something that I get to choose to do. It shouldn't be expected." I am going to classes full time next semester and I am going to get AT LEAST my Associates Degree.
Problem: My husband is pouting and guilting me with my new 'feminist' views on caring for myself. I had been eternally bound to the house, with one distant friend and no family. My health sank to it's lowest.
I've been reading the book on 'Momism' and others. I don't know if this 'marriage' will last. My passive aggressive spouse has been resentfully taking care of the kids so I can get out on his few holiday days off. His family insists on my taking care of him and the children. They curse me and any complaints I've had about my descending health and happiness. I've given all of me and more and never once, has anyone cared that I was so unhappy. They viewed me as weak and not a good wife or mother if I couldn't manage all my responsibilities 'cheerfully'. I am sad that I adhered to this sadistic negligence of myself. I even heard from a female lawyer, Dr. Laura and other 'Moms' that I didn't appreciate the freedom I had to stay at home for my kids. Before I married, I owned my own house and car with gainful employment. I feel like I consented to a marriage thinking that I would be taken care of the way that I cared for my family. I was suicidal and all my husband could do was to tell me over the phone that he had a meeting to get to and he had to go. He doesn't share thoughts or emotions with me. Yet, now he is trying to put on a fireworks display to keep me from leaving (until he finds a replacement caretaker?) . He is a shy, introverted Engineer at Sprint. I think he has many secrets behind those crying eyes. I can't prove very much more than catching him in frequent lies that tell me what I want to hear. I've supported his 'superior image' and a seperation would kill him so he says. I don't know if should give him a chance to change or just divorce him based on his brutal negligence for the past five years. I am afraid to be alone in a world where everyone who has loved me has neglected or abused me. If I leave, I'll never learn how to expect respect and equality in a relationship. My resentment is a barrier to my relationship with my husband who desperately wants to keep his slave/wife entact. Any thoughts?

[ca]

Karen: I am very sorry for your situation-- it sounds horrible! Now, I am a shy introverted engineer (female), about to marry an even more shy, even more introverted engineer. I can't say anything about his family, but I do think you should give your husband another chance. From what you are saying, he sounds like a typical engineer, which means that right now he is probably totally confused. (I get the feeling that most engineers are totally confused about personal relationships most of the time...) And at least he is trying-- he *is* taking care of the kids sometimes (on his holidays! when does he get out??), even if resentfully. That is a HUGE step. He probably does not even understand why you want friends, since he goes along perfectly fine without them.

Engineers are typically (and yes, there are exceptions) VERY bad about sharing thoughts and emotions; that's something you may just have to deal with. My fiance has thoughts and emotions, but often won't actually think about telling me unless I ask. He won't necessarily give me compliments; but I know that he'd be really sad if I left him. I also have to say that although he should not have left you if you were suicidal to go to a meeting, he may very well have not understood the gravity of the situation. In our relationship if I were crying and emotional about something, I would still make my fiance go to his meeting. But I've never been suicidal, in which case we'd perhaps make different decisions.

I would STRONGLY advise counseling, if for no other reason than that you and your husband seem to have a lot of communication difficulties. (Premarital counseling helped me and my uncommunicative fiance realize that there were issues we weren't talking about.) If you are unable to do so, at least you need to talk to him in ways that an engineer understands. This means use very specific, very factual language, thinking of possible solutions. Don't say, "I feel like I'm stifled" or even "I feel like I don't have any friends," which at least is more specific. He won't know what to do with that. Something like, "If I got a part-time job, I would be interacting with people again, and I think that would really be good for my health and happiness. Then I would be able to be a better wife and mother. In particular, right now I get depressed a lot and yell at the kids and you, and if I had an external outlet for that, I wouldn't do that as much. I know you are not like that, but I am different from you. In addition this would be good for our finances in such-and-such a way. I think that your family will have such-and-such objections, but we are a team and can work through that in blah-blah-blah way." It does seem like you're doing that some, which is good, but I think you may have to present it more in the "we are a team, and I do want to be a better wife and mother, and the other way was not working" way, so that he realizes that he is part of your decision-making process too. Without your being a doormat, obviously. The point is, this is a marriage, and if your husband wanted to do something major like quit his job and become a house husband, you would probably appreciate him talking to you and consulting you about it. It's courtesy to extend that same favor to him before you say "and I"m just gonna do it."

You may also need to address his sources of resentment. For example, if I were him, I'd be pretty resentful that I worked every day AND had to take care of the kids on my vacation days so I never got a day "off." Maybe you could do every other day, or agree that one day he takes care of the kids, and the next weekend he can go for a fishing trip or something.

It sounds like you're trying to do that some, at least. Anyway, good luck. I hope this is at all coherent.

oh, and about the presents thing: my fiance never gives me presents for my birthday or valentine's day. But I got a very nice Swedish Flag Day present :) Does he care if you get him presents? You may also want to read the book Love Languages.

Um... sorry for hijacking this thread. Anyway, given all the above, I think I'm a feminist :)

[badteeth]

Karen,

I say get the divorce, it sounds like you really hate your husband. If you're just having problems, then sure work through them, but if you out and out hate him, I'd say the marriage was over.

[Caitriona]

Karen,

I have to 2nd what ca posted. I thought I had posted something right after your post, but it's not here, so I'll re-post.

I've found Dr. Ed Wheat's _Love_Life_for_Every_Married_Couple_ to be extremely helpful. It's Bible-based, but the relationship information would be wonderful even for those who aren't Christian. It's only $5.99 on Amazon. Here's the link to the Amazon page for it:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310214866/002-3984166-2773616?v=glance&n=283155

You do have to realize that you're doing a *LOT* of changing, and that's going to be very difficult for everyone. As you change how you do things, they all have to change how they do things, too. It's like a chemical reaction - if one element changes, the entire composition changes.

One thing I did notice in your post. Nearly everything you wrote echoes what you think other people think about you and what other people have told you. You seem very resentful of all the things people have said and of how you think people think about you.

Something that I've found very helpful, when I start letting what I think other people think and feel get to me, is to change my own perspective about those people and those situations. When I successfully manage to change my perspective, I am able to better manage the things life throws at me, and I'm better able to communicate well with my husband, my children, and the other people with whom I have to deal. Perhaps that would be helpful for you as well.

I know it is proving helpful for an acquaintance who has come to my husband and me for advise on the difficulties he and his wife are having. We listened as he got everything out that was bothering him. The next day, I loaned him my copy of that book I referenced above. He tells me that it's helping him quite a lot.

Just remember, don't listen to negativity. Nothing's ever been successfully changed/fixed with negativity. You have to think positive!

[Caitriona]

Let's try making that Amazon page clickable.