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May 24, 2004

Comments

ken

Excellent post. And it goes without saying that it works the same way for men, too.

Hugo

Thanks, Ken; it does indeed.

candace

I wanted to comment but it's hard to say things on this topic without generating numerous assumptions about one's personal life!

I will say that I know for myself and for many of my friends, we have felt pressure that "the number" be somewhat high. In discussing my conquests with a friend just a week ago, her response to my behavior was "you are my hero!" My married friends, however, are much more concerned with my hook-ups, especially when I'm not tremendously enthusiastic about them.

Why is it heroic for people of either gender to accomplish something shallow? A one-time experience? Why is it something to brag about that you can't hold down a relationship and that's why you can have high numbers in a relatively short amount of time? There is always a want to be the most desired, true; I don't think that's escapable. But I'm quickly learning that when you are desirable, men want to keep you. It makes me wonder what happened to me and to my girlfriends that we're so arrogant as to not want to keep the men.

It's partly that they're oftentimes just not worthy (you linked to a great article on that before), and -- what I believe to be a progressive development -- we are a generation of women who know what we want and don't need to settle. On the other hand, every time we give so much as a hand or lips or ankle or tongue or words or emotions or even sometimes our phone number to yet another man, we're settling. Not that I'm tremendously "accomplished" (actually, I'm not fully certain where I stand comparatively), but I know that for myself, I wish I'd settled less.

And honestly, there was just a lot of pressure to fill up that little pink book.

CW

I have always sort of believed the old saying that you could multiply a woman's claimed "number" by three and divide a man's by three to get accurate figures.

Most of my "post modern" American girlfriends have asked me about "my number" - I haven't, and wouldn't, ask about theirs - then lied to me unbidden about their own number.

I've always thought the whole issue was pretty ridiculous. The only thing I want to know is "Do you have a communicable disease".

Constantina

Hugo,
I don't know if generalizations on infertility with age are all that accurate for everyone.__I have a sister that is 19 years younger than myself to prove it. My mom had Elena in her late 40s, my dad was 50 something.__ I remember my mom asking me what she should do....(this was obviously an accident.) I told her that she should have the baby. As it turned out, Elena was a super baby. She is 5-11",really smart and incredibly accomplished. But most importantly, she was there for my parents when all the rest of us had disappeared. _ There are families where special precautions must be taken to avoid pregnancy, it's just about genetics.
The moral of the story is: never say never.

Constantina

Hugo,
I never had a chance to finish my posting yesterday, I was in a rush.
This is my take on life as I see the relationship-dating-sex thing.__ I only have one rule. Never have sex with anyone that you are not in love with. Never marry anyone that you are not in love with. And never, ever have children with a person that you are not in love with.__I can tell you that if you follow these simple rules you will never go wrong in a relationship or in life. When I say in-love, I don't mean that you love the person. Being in-love with a person is very different from loving a person. You can love someone and not be in-love with them.
When I end my twenty-three year marriage this summer it will be for the simple reason that I am not in-love with my partner and I need to be independent. It won't end because I want to have a sexual relationship with someone else, nor will it end because I want to start another relationship__ I am simply tired of being in a partnership without being in-love, it really does not work...it is much better to be alone.
My 'take' on age in relatioships is simple; it is meaningless. Some people are immature forever, others mature early. What really matters is the chemistry between partners, not age.

Hugo Schwyzer

Constantina, thank you for sharing. I am glad that your emotions have proved such an accurate guide for your actions. I do wish you joy and peace as you go through this transition out of this marriage.

I must tell you, however, that in my experience the heart sometimes lies -- and the hormones that we mistake for the heart lie even louder! I am not the only person who on occasion has been betrayed by his own deep desires and longings.

We need sexual ethics that reach deeper than our own transient wants.

Constantina

Hugo,
I am not as effective a writer/communicator as I would like to be. I believe that you misinterpreted my previous comments.__I will re-phrase the comments using different terms to replace the words 'in-love'. " A person should not enter into a relationship with another unless they are connected spiritually, intellectually, emotionally and physically." (This is my definition of in-love...it is certainly more than emotions, and it has nothing to do with hormones.) You are right, emotions are certainly not a good indicator or guide to enter into a relationship, and it should never justify a sexual relationship.__ People should never have sex, marry or have children with another person unless all of the above criteria are present. If they are in a relationship that does not include spiritual, intellectual, emotional and physical connections it is a fraudulent relationship.
As far as sexual ethics are concerned, I can tell you without any hesitation that nobody in this planet has stronger values. I grew up in a very strict, traditional home with strong moral values. When I married at 27 I was still a virgin. I know this will shock most people, but I was never even tempted, my values were really strong! I have been married 23 yrs. in Feb., and I have never had any type of extra-marital affair. Honestly, I find people that seek sexual relationships as disgusting, nothing could repulse me more.

... This posting thing is getting really time consuming, I think I need to stop. This is absolutely my last post.

mythago

What Hugo said--especially as regards children. If you have children with another person, I think it wise to consider how you will feel about sharing parenthood with them if you don't love them anymore.

Constantina, not being tempted has nothing to do with "values". Even Jesus was tempted by Satan. It's *resisting* temptation that is a test of morality (as is avoiding being led into it). There's no superior virtue in rejecting urges you never felt.

zuzu

A person should not enter into a relationship with another unless they are connected spiritually, intellectually, emotionally and physically." (This is my definition of in-love...it is certainly more than emotions, and it has nothing to do with hormones.) You are right, emotions are certainly not a good indicator or guide to enter into a relationship, and it should never justify a sexual relationship.__ People should never have sex, marry or have children with another person unless all of the above criteria are present. If they are in a relationship that does not include spiritual, intellectual, emotional and physical connections it is a fraudulent relationship.

Well, I'm sure your system works for you, but I certainly don't consider my relationships fraudulent because I'm not in wuv with my partner or I don't buy into the soulmate crap pushed by Neil Clark Warren and his ilk.

Honestly, I find people that seek sexual relationships as disgusting, nothing could repulse me more.

How very special of you. Love to see those values on display.

Joseph

The feminist in me has been very unhappy with the recent adoption of the verb "to hit" to describe sexual activity; then again, given the state of the situation between the sexes, it may be apropos.

This bugs me too. I see women especially use the term "hitting on" to refer to someone taking the initiative to meet someone else for (possible) sex. Why the association between dating/sex and what can be construed to be a negative reference?

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