« "It's About Love" -- and a whole lot of money | Main | "Never allow our youngsters to die in vain" »

April 13, 2004

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d8341bfa9e53ef00e5505454878834

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference "Heather's Compromise", male responsibility, and "romantics":

» Blog around the sphere. from Candied Ginger
Amy has a post about the Rwandan president. Maybe linking to her will absolve me of my intentional abstention from commenting on the genocide's ten year anniversary last Wednesday. She's far more articulate on the subject than I could be.... [Read More]

Comments

Elizabeth

I agree, Hugo. From the passages you've provided, this author's analysis seems overly idealized. The character of males is not up to females, no matter how great an idea that may seem. If males were raised differently in our society, that would have a more positive effect than some "romantic" female holding out. I'm sorry, but these passages just seem to over-simplify the issues.

I did agree somewhat with the passage on unattached females. Our society still can't figure what to do with us. A bachelor seems to be more socially acceptable at this period of time than a single woman. I imagine it is better than it used to be, but it is still hard. Just the opinion of an "unattached" female. Now let's all go read "Bridget Jones' Diary".

Kelly

Sorry Hugo, but I feel that you are giving yourself and your sex too much credit. If the failings of men are to be corrected by the example of other men, then things will never change. In this regard I think it is the responsibility of women to demand what they deserve and not settle, even if it means never "finding" a man at all. (as totally depressing as that sounds). In that regard, for women of my age, there is no luxury of "compromise", it's all or naught.

Hugo

Well, Kelly, I agree we've done a lousy job so far! The key is to establish strong systems in the home and in the schools to provide a level of male-to-male support that has not previously existed. Should women put up with wimps and barbarians? No. But to believe that women can -- collectively -- alter male consciousness is demeaning to men.

kelly

Men have altered the female consciousness without cessation for ages, thus your state of demeantion, (yes, I made that word up but you know what I mean)in being altered by women is small in comparison. To that I say, get over it.

candace

I wasn't sure how to address this article, either. Something in it seemed right but something about it seemed really wrong. I mulled it over for two days before giving up and sticking with my one basic conclusion: I think part of the reason why women abandon that third choice for one of the first to is because male culture teaches them to be wimps and barbarians and we flat out give up.

I only recently discovered that men had emotions. I really bought into the idea that they think from below -- and all evidence reinforced it, both in behavior and in words, as even the kindest men I know still struggle to admit they have emotions, too, and that they care about women/relationships, not just getting laid.

Sometimes I wonder how different I'd be if I'd learned that lesson earlier.

Hugo

I think that is one of the areas where Moore falls down, Candace -- he fails to recognize how many women have tried for SO LONG to be "romantics", and then have, as you say, flat out given up.

His diagnosis of the problem is infinitely better than his prescribed remedy.

John

I think both are true. I think both women need to demand more than they are getting, and men need to be taught how to act like gentlemen, by other men. It's for this reason that some of my severest scoldings and (strictly metaphorical and verbal) lashings to my lads have been about how they treat women and girls. They need to be taught respect, even chivalry, something that I believe the sexual revolution abolished, pretty much. Likewise, the female leaders are attempting to teach the girls respect for themselves. It's an uphill row to hoe, But I think it's working.

Jonathan Dresner

I think generalization never works.

Seriously, though, Does Moore think that pre-20c courtship never involved broken hearts, never involved premarital sensual and sexual experiences? The whole piece is predicated on a romantic view of love and marriage that wasn't particularly common until the 19th century, ignoring the last few decades of social history research which has conclusively proven that the "victorian" era wasn't really as prudish or simple as the "moderns" made them out to be in the early 20th century.

John

Of course, you are right, Jonathan. But I think before the last 30 years, there were generally accepted rules of behaviour, even if they were more often honoured in breach than observance. I have read several feminist tomes lately (Notably "Possession", by A. S. Byatt) which are trying to re-negotiate the relationship between the sexes, and (mostly) failing.

Jonathan Dresner

John,

If you mean "accepted rules of behavior" for the slender group of humanity who were middle-class Anglo-Americans, sure. But a big part of the story of the 19th and 20th centuries is the displacement of majority rural societies (and their diverse traditions and relatively stable cultures) with majority urban societies (with diverse populations but middle-class values, but highly adaptive cultures). Every study I've read of rural society strongly suggests a much less romantic view of love and sex than we normally credit "traditional" societies, and much more social flexibility than their urban critics, reveling in their sophistication, credited them with.

Perhaps the reason these "renegotiations" are failing (and I think they are, on all sides of the political and gender divide) is that they don't actually represent anyone except themselves. Social patterns are based on millions of individual choices and habits, influenced by political and economic and religious shifts and not really subject to radical reshaping in the abstract. Perhaps you mean something else, though; I'm certainly not up on the latest theoretical "advances."

Hugo

Well, boys, good discussion. I think that the root of much of our unhappiness with the contemporary state of mating and dating lies in its radical individualism, and its notion that personal happiness is the primary yardstick by which a successful relationship can be judged.

1247136152

MMX6Ab rnhuatpe rgjhbfqr nsohjstx

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

My Photo

Regular reads

Blog powered by TypePad
Member since 01/2004